I Is the Measurement Apparatus made up partly of electrons? Perhaps not.

[lucas_]

The probabilities for the events can be ones corresponding to thermal states. Thermal effects are besides the point though.

Let's take the case of water molecules, H20. Conventionally, we know temperature makes the intermolecular bond forms and breaks and forms so fast at normal temperature..

Is there a way in principle to initiate more order in the intermolecular bonding still at normal temperature (based on your idea or descriptions above)? What extra hamiltonian (in principle) do you need to add in them to do this? (except freezing it or lowering the temperature)?

 

[DarMM]

Let's take the case of water molecules, H20. Conventionally, we know temperature makes the intermolecular bond forms and breaks and forms so fast at normal temperature..

Is there a way in principle to initiate more order in the intermolecular bonding still at normal temperature (based on your idea or descriptions above)? What extra hamiltonian (in principle) do you need to add in them to do this? (except freezing it or lowering the temperature)?

My descriptions above have nothing in particular to say about the thermal chemistry of water which will operate as chemists have found.

They concern two things.

1. That quantum theory rather than directly describing microscopic systems is about describing them in terms of events $E$ representing effects on objects regarded as classical. The algebra of events is then much more general than that in classical mechanics.
2. That a notion of matter being made of particles (this notion being represented as a certain decomposition of the event algebra) is only one recoverable in certain limits. Thankfully it's an approximation that is often valid.

 

[lucas_]

My descriptions above have nothing in particular to say about the thermal chemistry of water which will operate as chemists have found.

They concern two things.

1. That quantum theory rather than directly describing microscopic systems is about describing them in terms of events $E$ representing effects on objects regarded as classical. The algebra of events is then much more general than that in classical mechanics.
2. That a notion of matter being made of particles (this notion being represented as a certain decomposition of the event algebra) is only one recoverable in certain limits. Thankfully it's an approximation that is often valid.

If I can show you that that it is possible to initiate some kind of ordering or coherency among individual water molecules without changing the temperature, or showing that it is possible to change the inter-molecular structure of liquid water. Is our QFT or QM still sufficient to describe it by perhaps adding extra hamiltonian of some kind? What must the Hamiltonian be to produce such effects in your descriptions a few messages back? This is the main question of this thread so please address this. Thanks.

 

[DarMM]

If I can show you that that it is possible to initiate some kind of ordering or coherency among individual water molecules without changing the temperature, or showing that it is possible to change the inter-molecular structure of liquid water. Is our QFT or QM still sufficient to describe it by perhaps adding extra hamiltonian of some kind? What must the Hamiltonian be to produce such effects in your descriptions a few messages back? This is the main question of this thread so please address this. Thanks.

My discussion in this thread is not about altering water in some hitherto unknown way. I have no posts about producing effects in water or what Hamiltonians might be needed to describe effects in water nobody as ever seen and I have little to say about such a topic.

The thread seemed to be about @atyy 's reference to the necessity of classical devices in QM, not new and untested ideas about hydrochemistry.

 

[lucas_]

My discussion in this thread are not about altering water in some hitherto unknown way. I have no posts about producing effects in water or what Hamiltonians might be needed to describe effects in water nobody as ever seen and I have little to say about such a topic.

The thread seemed to be about @atyy 's reference to the necessity of classical devices in QM, not new and untested ideas about hydrochemistry.

Well. Let's say it's a good example.

We treat water or molecules are like marbles where brownian motions move them. But if they are all quantum objects, perhaps some global quantum effects can be recovered? This is especially if quantum mechanics is not theory of the microscopic as the other thread seems to suggest.

 

[PeterDonis]

If I can show you that that it is possible to initiate some kind of ordering or coherency among individual water molecules without changing the temperature, or showing that it is possible to change the inter-molecular structure of liquid water. Is our QFT or QM still sufficient to describe it by perhaps adding extra hamiltonian of some kind?

Theories don't have to account for nonexistent events.

Let's say it's a good example.

You don't get to just help yourself to fanciful examples.

if they are all quantum objects, perhaps some global quantum effects can be recovered?

If you can find experimental evidence of such a thing, we can discuss it. But there's no point in just making up hypotheticals out of thin air.

 

[PeterDonis]

This thread has degenerated into speculation and is now closed.