Is there a limit for the solution of Navier Stokes equation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence and limits of solutions to the Navier-Stokes equations, particularly in relation to the Kolmogorov Microscale equations. Participants explore the implications of these equations in the context of laminar and turbulent flows, as well as the conditions under which different flow regimes occur.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Robert questions whether the limits for the solution of the Navier-Stokes equations correspond to the Kolmogorov Microscale equations.
  • Another participant suggests that Kolmogorov Microscale applies specifically to turbulence and that below certain scales, laminar flow may occur, indicating a threshold related to molecular size.
  • A further contribution clarifies that the Navier-Stokes equations can yield both laminar and turbulent flow solutions depending on initial and boundary conditions, emphasizing that turbulence is not inherent unless induced.
  • Participants discuss the relationship between Kolmogorov theory and turbulent flows, noting that direct numerical simulations (DNS) should reflect Kolmogorov's hypothesis as the length scale approaches zero, contingent on numerical accuracy.
  • Robert requests references for the Kolmogorov Microscale equations, leading to discussions about the focus of these equations on energy rather than momentum, which is the primary concern of the Navier-Stokes equations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of the Kolmogorov Microscale equations to laminar versus turbulent flows, and there is no consensus on the limits of the Navier-Stokes solutions in relation to these scales.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved assumptions regarding the conditions under which laminar and turbulent flows occur, as well as the specific definitions and implications of the Kolmogorov Microscale equations in this context.

robert80
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Dear all

I have 1 simple question. If the solution of Navier Stokes equation exists, its limits for infimum length, time and velocity would be the Kolmogorov Microscale equations, am I correct?

Thanks,

Robert
 
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I am not so sure about that. I think Kolmogorov Microscale apply to turbulence and eddies only. Below that scale you could have flow, but it would be laminar. I think its limits would be certain lengths below which the assumption of continuity is not satisfied (i.e. like 1000 times molecule size). That would be my guess.
 
As said above, Kolmogorov theory deals with turbulent flows at "sufficiently" high Reynolds numbers, whilst N-S equations can give either laminar-flow solutions or turbulent-flow solutions, depending on initial and boundary conditions.

Think of a free uniform rectilinear flow, for example. If you don't introduce an artificial initial instability to generate a turbulence, the solution of N-S will give a uniform rectilinear and laminar flow at all length scales.

But generally speaking, if the resulting flow is turbulent (because you've decided to make it turbulent) then DNS solution should reflect Kolmogorov's hypothesis as the length scale goes to zero. It will, of course, depend on the numerical accuracy of the solution.
 
Last edited:
robert80 said:
Dear all

I have 1 simple question. If the solution of Navier Stokes equation exists, its limits for infimum length, time and velocity would be the Kolmogorov Microscale equations, am I correct?

Thanks,

Robert

Can you provide some sort of reference for the Kolmogorov microscale equation? The reference I found:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...sg=AFQjCNHoGK-uadD_2HuQGaqLCVA2u7EtjQ&cad=rja

indicates the equation relates to energy, not momentum- the NS equation is a momentum equation.
 
Andy Resnick said:
The reference I found
...
indicates the equation relates to energy, not momentum- the NS equation is a momentum equation.
That is correct. You can find a very good and easy-to-read short essay about Kolmogorov theory here (PowerPoint file): http://www.bakker.org/dartmouth06/engs150/09-kolm.ppt
 
Last edited:
Ok thank you for all the help, this links are preety useful.
 

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