Is there any scientific basis for Proposition 37?

[russ_watters]

DDT was harmless, then chlordane was harmless, then dieldren was harmless, then malathion was safe. They were all supposedly harmless when they were approved for the market.

So is water. I guess based on the fact that people say water is harmless but we know that people are often wrong, we can assume water is poisonous, right?

 

[aquitaine]

And the financial backing given the otherside of the studies. I just think that I have the right to know non natural substances are in the food I eat. This is about a label not a ban.

The studies of the other side have to follow strict guidelines regarding their methodology and data submission. They wouldn't get regulatory approval otherwise.

This isn't explicitly a ban but it might as well be given that it's being done in conjunction with alarmist propaganda on a gullible and scientifically illiterate populace. Just look at how they ate up that Saralini study.

DDT was harmless, then chlordane was harmless, then dieldren was harmless, then malathion was safe. They were all supposedly harmless when they were approved for the market.

DDT was harmless when compared with the alternatives at the time, which was typhoid, malaria, etc. In fact before it was banned it practically wiped out malaria in several places in Africa. Here in the first world we have the option of using less harmful but more expensive alternatives, in many parts of the third world that isn't an option.

But even so today our regulatory standards are much tighter than they were 60 years ago.

It is in wide spread use and has been for years. Monsanto's patent on Roundup expired in 2010 after being extended once. Now the market is flooded with generics. This is bad news and bad news. Glyphosate is now cheaper meaning more will be used. The generics are being produced in China.

So you're saying it's bad that we use it so much now and that it's bad we will use more even though that potentially means getting us off of more toxic herbicides?

Glyphosate Found in Mississippi River Basin

It's breakdown isn't instantaneous. It's used more now than it was in 1992, therefore more of it would end up in the environment from run off.

 

[edward]

So is water. I guess based on the fact that people say water is harmless but we know that people are often wrong, we can assume water is poisonous, right?

Oh come on Russ you are twisting my words. All of those pesticides were originally considered safe. They were all eventually banned. Has water been banned?

 

[edward]

http://www.epa.gov/oppsrrd1/REDs/factsheets/0178fact.pdf is a link from the EPA Factsheet for Glyphosate.

That EPA fact sheet is dated 1993.

 

[edward]

Here is the result of newer studies. It isn't the glyphosate that is so toxic it is the surfactant POEA used in the product.

Until now, most health studies have focused on the safety of glyphosate, rather than the mixture of ingredients found in Roundup. But in the new study, scientists found that Roundup’s inert ingredients amplified the toxic effect on human cells—even at concentrations much more diluted than those used on farms and lawns.

One specific inert ingredient, polyethoxylated tallowamine, or POEA, was more deadly to human embryonic, placental and umbilical cord cells than the herbicide itself – a finding the researchers call “astonishing.”

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=weed-whacking-herbicide-p

 

[chemisttree]

No, what they are really saying is that Roundup is as safe as soap. Good luck trying to sell the hysteria...

 

[Ben Niehoff]

I agree that Prop 37 is on shaky ground, scientifically, at least with regards to health issues.

However, I am for Prop 37 due to broader issues. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the issue with patented crops, and farmers being exploited by companies such as Monsanto who engineer these crops. Evo shut this person down for being off-topic, but if the topic is Prop 37, then I disagree.

As a consumer, I don't want to support the notion of patenting an organism, deliberately designing it to be infertile, or suing farmers who grow it even accidentally. In order to make informed choices regarding the products I buy, I want those products to be labelled as to their origin and constituents.

The health issue may be a red herring, but I still want to know whether a given food item contains GMO ingredients, so that I can exercise my freedom not to support that industry. As far as I can tell, the current laws on "Organic" labelling are also not about health issues, but merely about allowing consumers to make informed choices.

I also think ingredient labelling should be mandatory on alcoholic drinks, but that's another battle entirely.

 

[Evo]

This is why my can of tuna says "warning: may contain tuna".

 

[edward]

This is why my can of tuna says "warning: may contain tuna".

And a bit of mercury.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine-archive/2011/january/food/mercury-in-tuna/overview/index.htm

 

[Evo]

And a bit of mercury.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine-archive/2011/january/food/mercury-in-tuna/overview/index.htm

No mention of mercury, but it's chunk light, less mercury than white albacore, which I never eat, it's too dry.

 

[Averagesupernova]

I am aware of how it is mixed. It is mixed in ounces per gallon of water.

Apparently you are not. It's use is spec'd in ounces per acre. 20 to 30 oz is common. The amount of water used is not so specific. 8 to 15 gallons per acre of water is common. It will depend slightly on the type and size of sprayer. The nozzles used will somewhat govern how much water per acre is used. Small nozzles require less gallons per acre since to drive the machine at a reasonable speed the pressure has to be increased in order to get the amount required out the nozzle. This higher pressure can lead to a lot of fog coming off of the machine which causes higher probability of it drifting to where it does not belong. Naturally spraying less gallons of water is desirable since more ground is covered between fills.
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But, it can get to the point of having to drive too fast with larger nozzles. For the nozzle to work correctly the pressure has to maintain a minimum and in order to get the proper amount out the nozzle the pressure has to be dropped on a large nozzle otherwise too much will be sprayed.
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No matter what amount of water is chosen, naturally in order to maintain the proper rate of active chemical the same amount must be sprayed out throughout the entire tank.
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There are also machines that use chemical injection. This method directly injects the pure active chemical (Roundup for this discussion) into the plumbing using a metering pump.
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Roundup is also labeled for a maximum amount per acre per year. This is a pretty high amount compared to what is typically sprayed.
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Whatever you claim to have seen may seem sloppy but I doubt it was. I think there is more to it than what you saw.

 

[edward]

Apparently you are not. It's use is spec'd in ounces per acre. 20 to 30 oz is common. The amount of water used is not so specific. 8 to 15 gallons per acre of water is common. It will depend slightly on the type and size of sprayer. The nozzles used will somewhat govern how much water per acre is used. Small nozzles require less gallons per acre since to drive the machine at a reasonable speed the pressure has to be increased in order to get the amount required out the nozzle. This higher pressure can lead to a lot of fog coming off of the machine which causes higher probability of it drifting to where it does not belong. Naturally spraying less gallons of water is desirable since more ground is covered between fills.
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But, it can get to the point of having to drive too fast with larger nozzles. For the nozzle to work correctly the pressure has to maintain a minimum and in order to get the proper amount out the nozzle the pressure has to be dropped on a large nozzle otherwise too much will be sprayed.
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No matter what amount of water is chosen, naturally in order to maintain the proper rate of active chemical the same amount must be sprayed out throughout the entire tank.
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There are also machines that use chemical injection. This method directly injects the pure active chemical (Roundup for this discussion) into the plumbing using a metering pump.
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Roundup is also labeled for a maximum amount per acre per year. This is a pretty high amount compared to what is typically sprayed.
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Whatever you claim to have seen may seem sloppy but I doubt it was. I think there is more to it than what you saw.

Have you ever mixed up a tank of something and tried to get it to cover a specifically designated area? I always end up with not quite enough or with some left over.

As you mentioned only recent technology has allowed the injection of roundup using electronics to measure movement. Roundup has been around a loooong time.

I didn't mention that this was many years ago when I observed directly. A lot has changed but in a way nothing has changed. To kill some weeds it takes as much as five times the concentration of roundup.

As long as you arent using any references I won't either.

The whole thing with Monsanto and Roudup is moot. Their patent has expired. Generic glyphosate is being made in china and is underpricing Monsanto to the point that Monsanto is loosing money on the product.

As I have previously mention the thread is about lables on products sold to the public not a ban on the chemicals.

As far as I am concerned there is reason to doubt the safety of the product. Most of the safety studies were done in the 1990's, with approval studies done in the 1970's

The two below are much more recent.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=weed-whacking-herbicide-p

http://www.pitt.edu/~relyea/Site/Roundup.html

The GMO plants aren't killed when sprayed of course but they do retain glyphosate all the way to the dinner table.

There are also recent studies showing runoff into waterways can be toxic to aquatic life.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ag248

 

[Averagesupernova]

edward:

As for if I have ever mixed up something to cover a given amount of area. Yes, all the time. Your comment about metering pure roundup in has merit. Yes, that technology as far as I know is not that old. BUT, flow controls in general have been around for a long time. I will elaborate:
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The first flow control was a pressure gauge and a speedometer. Or if no speedometer existed the operator used a wristwatch and a known distance to calculate speed. Knowing the property of the nozzles the operator knew how much was being applied by watching the pressure gauge. Of course this system had several drawbacks. One was that pressure is not a direct indication of how much is going out the nozzles. For one thing a plugged nozzle or filter will cause an increase in pressure without an increase in the amount applied. This approach was automated with a speed sensor and a pressure transducer but the same drawbacks were present as in doing it manually.
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Next came the flowmeter. I don't know how long this has been around but I would estimate at least 20 to 25 years in the chemical application industry. This is a large improvement. The correct amount of chemical and water has to be mixed up like I described in my last post but the process of controlling rate is automated. If nozzles or filters are plugged it makes no difference in the total flow. It is usually indicated by an increase in pressure. A leaky hose or something of this nature will be indicated by a drop in pressure.
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Chemical injection uses the same technology as the flowmeter system to spray out the desired amount of water but also uses the metering pump as I described.
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So what happens if there is mix left in the tank? No problem, just go spray it out over what has already been covered at a significantly reduced rate. What is on the label gives a good guidline on how to do this since as I said before most chemicals have a maximum amount per acre per year allowed.
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A little more thought to the operator you saw 'just guessing'. a lot of the time if you spray out 10% less for instance than what the label specs it doesn't matter. The size of the weed, temperature, type of weed, etc. all make a diffierence in the rate used. Cutting rate is a very common practice. So if I know that dumping in 5 gallons into the tank is the most I need to do the job, and meets regulations and I have a container that I know holds NO more than 5 gallons, what's the problem with getting it close?
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You mention that what you saw was a long time ago. My guess is that if it were long ago enough that there was no automatic rate controller the error in speed and pressure caused more inaccuracies than a close guess on the amount dumped in. I'm not sure if you can even say it was a guess since a lot of containers have graduations on the sides to determine how much is in them.
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Concerning the 5 times rate comment: I too have found something bought at the hardware store takes a lot more than what they say it takes. I have not found this spraying crops with Roundup. If it were the case, anyone with an ounce of sense would switch to a different chemical.

 

[Averagesupernova]

I seriously doubt Monsanto is losing money on Roundup. Even if they are they can just raise the price of the seed. Roundup ready seed and Roundup are a package deal.

 

[edward]

I seriously doubt Monsanto is losing money on Roundup. Even if they are they can just raise the price of the seed. Roundup ready seed and Roundup are a package deal.

You might want to think that one over.

Monsanto Co. MON +1.77%cut its earnings forecast Thursday for the second time in seven weeks, as it slashed prices of its Roundup herbicide, largely putting to pasture the onetime cash cow that funded the company's push into crop biotechnology in the 1990s.

The St. Louis agribusiness giant, already struggling with a backlash by farmers against the premiums it charges for genetically modified seeds, is cutting prices for its once high-flying weed-killer franchise to near the levels of generic versions flooding into the U.S. from China.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704269204575270522340058234.html

 

[edward]

I presume this thread isn't specifically about Monsanto GMO products. Bayer AG also has GMO products and their own herbicide "Ignite".

http://www.bayercropscience.us/products/herbicides/ignite/

Bayer AG uses the trade name Liberty Link on their GMO crops.

http://www.bayercropscience.us/products/herbicides/ignite/libertylink-crops


Bayer has a problem with farmers suing them.

A Bayer AG (BAYN) unit agreed to a $750 million settlement resolving claims with about 11,000 U.S. farmers who said a strain of the company’s genetically modified rice tainted crops and ruined their export value.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-07-01/bayer-to-pay-750-million-to-end-lawsuits-over-genetically-modified-rice.html

 

[moonman239]

So it turns out that Prop 37 was not created because we don't have a way to know if the food we eat is genetically engineered. We can know our food is safe by buying foods that are certified organic according to the USDA's organic standards - genetic modification = not organic. It does, however, serve those who can't afford organic foods.

Anyway, today's the day, California. Please do America a favor by voting "YES" on Prop 37! Let's help Monsanto become a pile of dust!

 

[moonman239]

You might want to think that one over.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704269204575270522340058234.html

That's music to my ears.

 

[Averagesupernova]

You might want to think that one over.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704269204575270522340058234.html

I think you missed my point. There are a very few instances where Roundup is purchased but not sprayed in places where Roundup ready seed was planted. They can give the stuff away with proof of purchase of the seed. When purchasing Roundup ready seed an agreement is already signed. That makes the customer fairly traceable. Monsanto can cry all they want but I am not too worried about their ability to stay in business.

 

[Evo]

Anyway, today's the day, California. Please do America a favor by voting "YES" on Prop 37! Let's help Monsanto become a pile of dust!

I hope sanity prevails and it's shot down. But it's California, not too much hope for sanity. And it only applies to California like all of the other nonsense passed there.

 

[aquitaine]

Monsanto Co. MON +1.77%cut its earnings forecast Thursday for the second time in seven weeks, as it slashed prices of its Roundup herbicide, largely putting to pasture the onetime cash cow that funded the company's push into crop biotechnology in the 1990s.

The St. Louis agribusiness giant, already struggling with a backlash by farmers against the premiums it charges for genetically modified seeds, is cutting prices for its once high-flying weed-killer franchise to near the levels of generic versions flooding into the U.S. from China.

Not too surprising. People often forget that Monsanto's high market share comes from the fact that most farmers like what they produce. No one forces them to do it, and if they find a better deal somewhere else then so be it.

So it turns out that Prop 37 was not created because we don't have a way to know if the food we eat is genetically engineered. We can know our food is safe by buying foods that are certified organic according to the USDA's organic standards - genetic modification = not organic.

So basically anything that's not "organic" isn't safe according to that statement. I'm really surprised no one has called you out for making a hysterical claim without any evidence, especially since the vast majority of our unmodified food isn't organic either.

 

[edward]

I think you missed my point. There are a very few instances where Roundup is purchased but not sprayed in places where Roundup ready seed was planted. They can give the stuff away with proof of purchase of the seed. When purchasing Roundup ready seed an agreement is already signed. That makes the customer fairly traceable. Monsanto can cry all they want but I am not too worried about their ability to stay in business.

I got your point perhaps you didn't read the link. If only the situation was that simple.

The resistant weeds could also be a problem for the Monsanto Company, which developed both Roundup and the Roundup Ready crops. Roundup is Monsanto's biggest product, accounting for about 40 percent of its estimated 2002 revenue of $4.6 billion, according to Bear, Stearns. The Roundup Ready crops, the linchpin of Monsanto's agricultural biotechnology business, had revenue of roughly $470 million last year, Bear, Stearns said.

Monsanto makes much more from it's sale of Roundup than it does from Roundup Ready crops.

Fields must now be sprayed with a pre -emergent after planting the GMO to try to stop weeds that have become resistant to glyphosate. This just ads another troublesome chemical to the soil.

But this is just for now.

http://www.geaps.com/alerts/archives/1178.html

Currently a number of companies are rushing to develop new GMO crops that are immune to other herbicides.

Dow is seeking USDA approval for corn engineered to be tolerant of 2,4-D, a widely used weedkiller that predates glyphosate (it was a key component of the Agent Orange); it hopes to start marketing the new variety next year. Monsanto hopes to follow in 2014 with soybeans resistant to the herbicide dicamba.

http://www.minnpost.com/earth-journ...inst-weeds-new-weapons-extend-losing-strategy

It seems to be a never ending cycle of trying to fight natural selection in weeds. In the end nature will win. And hopefully we will realize that before we totally ruin our topsoil.

 

[moonman239]

So basically anything that's not "organic" isn't safe according to that statement. I'm really surprised no one has called you out for making a hysterical claim without any evidence, especially since the vast majority of our unmodified food isn't organic either.

Actually, I do think organic foods are safest. Why buy non-organic stuff when you can buy stuff from people who actually care about the land?

 

[Jack21222]

Actually, I do think organic foods are safest.

Safest how? Do you have any scientific studies to back that up?

 

[moonman239]

Safest how? Do you have any scientific studies to back that up?

Nope. It all just makes sense. Like I said, why don't people want to buy organic foods? If we got enough people to do so, the price would go down. And so would the companies who don't make organic foods. And I see that as a good thing.

 

[Jack21222]

Nope. It all just makes sense.

Then I'm afraid your post does not meet the standards of PF.

I don't buy organic because it tastes worse and costs more. I live half a block away from Whole Foods, but I only buy a few select items from them.

 

[russ_watters]

Actually, I do think organic foods are safest. Why buy non-organic stuff when you can buy stuff from people who actually care about the land?

I purposely avoid "organic". I think normal food is higher quality, cheaper and more eco friendly.

If we got enough people to do so, the price would go down.

Probably not -- we'd start running out of food, which would cause prices to go up. The "organic" fad will end when people realize they are being scammed and the price drops on its own.

 

[Evo]

I purposely avoid "organic". I think normal food is higher quality, cheaper and more eco friendly.

So do I! Recent studies show that organic is not any better and does not justify the higher cost. Any vegetable that can be peeled does not need to be organic if pesticides are your concern.

Early voting shows it's being shot down. Good.

 

[Ben Niehoff]

It looks like Prop 37 has been voted No, by a decent margin.

 

[Averagesupernova]

edward, Roundup is about the simplest and safest chemical ever sprayed. 2,4-D was the first chemical used in corn which was shortly after it was available. I would estimate early 1950s, maybe earlier. Seems impossible by the link you posted but it was. Corn already is tolerant to 2,4-D but not to the extent that modifying it would be. I don't believe there are any chemicals to come out new in the last 15 to 20 years. About all the chemicals used today and that will be used in the near future have already been sprayed for many years. If you think changing chemicals to combat natural resistance is something new you are mistaken.
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As I said before, I am not worried about Monsanto going under. Time will tell.