News Israel PM: State Protection for War Crimes in Gaza

[humanino]

Because there is no evidence that these were "direct attacks on civilians". To my knowledge they were attacks on Hamas, Hamas chooses to mix in with civilians. But this has only been pointed out dozens of times here already.

Was this linked ?
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/012/2009/en/3301b5c0-189b-4ba2-9bca-68e116fd590f/mde150122009en.pdf


Top 20 Arms and Ammunition Deliveries to Israel between 2004-2007 measured in US$

USA 1,312,909,556
Serbia and Montenegro (2004 only) 8,626,560
Poland 7,455,679
Romania 6,757,241
Serbia24 6,331,138
Korea, South 5,864,486
Slovakia 5,415,005
Czech Republic 4,491,753
Finland 4,138,731
Austria 4,015,987
Italy 3,187,896
Brazil 1,983,166
Bosnia-Herzogovina 1,880,499
Germany 1,531,000
Colombia 1,496,192
Albania 1,255,415
India 1,052,680
Spain 952,725
Netherlands 784,714
UK 754,367
Canada 707,384

 

[Evo]

Was this linked ?
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE15/012/2009/en/3301b5c0-189b-4ba2-9bca-68e116fd590f/mde150122009en.pdf


Top 20 Arms and Ammunition Deliveries to Israel between 2004-2007 measured in US$

USA 1,312,909,556
Serbia and Montenegro (2004 only) 8,626,560
Poland 7,455,679
Romania 6,757,241
Serbia24 6,331,138
Korea, South 5,864,486
Slovakia 5,415,005
Czech Republic 4,491,753
Finland 4,138,731
Austria 4,015,987
Italy 3,187,896
Brazil 1,983,166
Bosnia-Herzogovina 1,880,499
Germany 1,531,000
Colombia 1,496,192
Albania 1,255,415
India 1,052,680
Spain 952,725
Netherlands 784,714
UK 754,367
Canada 707,384

What does this have to do with accusing Israel of intentionally "murdering" civilians?

 

[Art]

Yes stating that Israel is intentionally "murdering" Palestinians is misinformation.

I wasn't there to see first hand (though here we did see on TV actual footage of an ambulance worker being shot at multiple times until he was eventually hit in the leg whilst carrying a stretcher) so the accusations are not mine they are the accusations of highly respectable internationally acclaimed organisations. Now explain how citing those references is misinformation.

Your state of denial despite every major international organisation accusing Israel of war crimes is surely misinformation. Is it not?? Are you actually trying to claim Amnesty International, the UN, the IRC and HRW are not suitable source references on this forum

Those were posts that you made prior to being banned and after your warning on 12-28-08. You made 10 posts after that warning and the mentors decided a 10 day timeout was appropriate.

I received only 2 warnings the second for this post.

Originally Posted by phyzmatix View Post

It seems that the point as to whether or not Hamas and/or law enforcement agencies are legally defined as civilians is moot. Just because civilians were killed, doesn't automatically mean that a war crime has been committed:

My reply Article 51.-Protection of the civilian population

It does if they are civilians and have been deliberately targeted. That's about as cast iron a case of a war crime as you are ever likely to find.

Please explain how this post for which I received a warning breached forum guidelines. I quoted the relevant Geneva convention and I even gave Israel the benefit of the doubt and said IF Israel was targeting civilians not that they definitely were, despite the IRC and UN accusations at that time that they were.

 

[humanino]

What does this have to do with accusing Israel of intentionally "murdering" civilians?

This accusation is explicit in the report from Amnesty International I gave in link.

Independently, the numbers "Arms and Ammunition Deliveries to Israel" I copied are also given in the report. They are supposed to be useful in this discussion, not

having to do anything with accusing Israel of intentionally "murdering" civilians

but, for instance, they are quite useful if one wants to form his/her own opinion about the numbers you provided in #43 which I quoted in #44.

For instance, I have not found

I believe there was some mention in my first article about the difference in opinions between Europeans and Americans.

beyond what was explicitely posted in this discussion.

I think the numbers provided above might illustrate, this is a personal theory only, but nothing better has attracted my attention here so far, if one reads the numbers

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|    (1)      |  sympathetic toward the Israelis | supported the Palestinians |
|    (2)      |  Hamas was responsible for war   | mainly blamed Israel       |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|  american   |              60%                 |             17%            |
|   french    |              23%                 |             18%            |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|

and naively sees one "abnormal" number significantly different from the others.

 

[Art]

That I thought Hamas had been legitimized after the violent takeover?

Because there is no evidence that these were "direct attacks on civilians". To my knowledge they were attacks on Hamas, Hamas chooses to mix in with civilians. But this has only been pointed out dozens of times here already.

Do you find something ambiguous in this statement from the Amnesty International report

Amnesty International is deeply concerned that weaponry, munitions and other military equipment supplied to Israel have been used by Israeli armed forces to carry out direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects in Gaza

http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/upload/images/amnesty_ie/campaigns/Israel%20OPT/Fuelling%20conflict_Final.pdf

It unequivocally states Israel carried out direct attacks on civilians. For you to continue to deny this is incomprehensible.

 

[Evo]

I wasn't there to see first hand (though here we did see on TV actual footage of an ambulance worker being shot at multiple times until he was eventually hit in the leg whilst carrying a stretcher) so the accusations are not mine they are the accusations of highly respectable internationally acclaimed organisations. Now explain how citing those references is misinformation.

Your state of denial despite every major international organisation accusing Israel of war crimes is surely misinformation. Is it not?? Are you actually trying to claim Amnesty International, the UN, the IRC and HRW are not suitable source references on this forum

Art, Amnesty International is a group of people that gather for a cause, similar to Greenpeace and PETA.

I read the Amnesty International article Kyleb posted and even they did not go so far as to claim "murder".

I received only 2 warnings the second for this post.

You received a warning on Dec 28th stating "Please just stick to facts and not attack other members. I'm giving you this warning in lieu of a 3 day timeout. If you don't tone your posts down, I will have no choice." After 10 more posts of a similar nature, a 10 day ban was decided on. We do not give a warning on each individual post if they cover a very short time period. You can go from zero to ban depending on posts without previous infractions.

Have you noticed that you didn't get a warning for the post today? I cut you so much slack, and you don't even realize it. But the forum isn't the place to be discussing your posting history.

 

[Evo]

Do you find something ambiguous in this statement from the Amnesty International report http://www.amnesty.ie/amnesty/upload/images/amnesty_ie/campaigns/Israel%20OPT/Fuelling%20conflict_Final.pdf

It unequivocally states Israel carried out direct attacks on civilians. For you to continue to deny this is incomprehensible.

A non-governmental independent group that states that they are

deeply concerned

but provide no evidence. Like I said...

 

[humanino]

Amnesty International is a group of people that gather for a cause, similar to [...] PETA.

In principle you are correct. But that you compare AI to PETA is enough to convince me that discussing here about those issues is pretty useless. I find it quite shocking actually that you dare such a provocation. When has PETA received a Nobel prize ?

 

[Art]

Art, Amnesty International is a group of people that gather for a cause, similar to Greenpeace and PETA.

I read the Amnesty International article Kyleb posted and even they did not go so far as to claim "murder".

You received a warning on Dec 28th stating "Please just stick to facts and not attack other members. I'm giving you this warning in lieu of a 3 day timeout. If you don't tone your posts down, I will have no choice." After 10 more posts of a similar nature, a 10 day ban was decided on. We do not give a warning on each individual post if they cover a very short time period. You can go from zero to ban depending on posts without previous infractions.

Have you noticed that you didn't get a warning for the post today? I cut you so much slack, and you don't even realize it. But the forum isn't the place to be discussing your posting history.

Amnesty International whom you appear to be trying to dismiss as no big deal is a very highly respected organisation to such an extent the BBC led it's ME news section with this story.

Evo whether you like it or not the intentional killing of civilians by members of the military is murder. Even in a conflict zone. Only a couple of days ago a US soldier was convicted of MURDER following an incident in Iraq

US soldier guilty of Iraq murder

A US soldier has been convicted of murder for his involvement in the killing of four Iraqis who were shot and dumped in a Baghdad canal in 2007.

Sgt Michael Leahy Jr had confessed to investigators that he shot an Iraqi in the back of the head from close range.

His lawyers argued that the stress of being in a conflict zone for so long meant he was unable to reason properly.

But a panel at a court martial in Vilseck, Germany, dismissed the claims and will decide Leahy's sentence later.

The 28-year-old army medic, from Lockport, Illinois, faces a maximum life term in jail and a dishonourable discharge from the army.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7902599.stm

And the fact that you would even consider warning me because you do not understand the charge of murder is ridiculous.

And I agree PMs are better but you don't reply to them.

 

[OAQfirst]

In principle you are correct. But that you compare AI to PETA is enough to convince me that discussing here about those issues is pretty useless. I find it quite shocking actually that you dare such a provocation. When has PETA received a Nobel prize ?

Art, Amnesty International is a group of people that gather for a cause, similar to Greenpeace and PETA.

It's obvious what the comparison is of.

 

[Evo]

Art, from Amnesty International, your link.

During the same period, Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups continued to fire indiscriminate rockets into residential areas of southern Israel, killing three civilians.
Direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects, disproportionate attacks and indiscriminate
attacks are war crimes.

 

[Art]

A non-governmental independent group that states that they are but provide no evidence. Like I said...

Your derision of Amnesty International does you no credit but why not read the report first then comment.

It is resplendent with evidence eg

Amnesty International delegates found fragments from 120mm tank rounds all over Gaza,including in homes where these munitions had killed children and other civilians. Tank rounds are precision munitions. The killings of so many civilians, many in their homes, indicates that these munitions were – at best – used in a reckless or indiscriminate manner. In Jabaliya, north Gaza, at the home of Dr Izz al-Din Abu al-‘Eish, a gynaecologist who works in an Israeli hospital, Amnesty International delegates found fragments of the two 120mm tank shells which were fired by Israeli soldiers into the bedroom of Dr Abu al-‘Eish’s daughters on the afternoon of 16 January. Three of the doctor’s daughters and his niece were killed on the spot and another daughter and niece were seriously injured.

to say AI did not provide any evidence is untrue and yet more blatant misinformation. Not only have they detailed descriptions of the alleged war crimes they have pics of the munitions involved.

 

[kyleb]

That I thought Hamas had been legitimized after the violent takeover?

Again, my question is; what motivates you to present such misinformation in your ardent defense of Israel's conquest over Palestine? In other words; what compelled you to think that Hamas first took Gaza over by force then held an election while putting the electorate in fear of their lives, in direct contraction to reality?

Art, Amnesty International is a group of people that gather for a cause...

What point were you attempting to make by stating the obvious here?

I read the Amnesty International article Kyleb posted and even they did not go so far as to claim "murder".

So your argument is simply one of semantics?

 

[Art]

Art, from Amnesty International, your link.

I have never said otherwise. One wrong does not justify another wrong, especially one magnitudes of orders worse. And that is not just my opinion that is international law!

I do not support Hamas' indiscriminate attacks on Israel in the slightest though I suspect if someone would supply them with guided missiles they'd be quite happy to aim only at military targets in Israel.

 

[OAQfirst]

Amnesty International delegates found fragments from 120mm tank rounds all over Gaza,including in homes where these munitions had killed children and other civilians. Tank rounds are precision munitions. The killings of so many civilians, many in their homes, indicates that these munitions were – at best – used in a reckless or indiscriminate manner. In Jabaliya, north Gaza, at the home of Dr Izz al-Din Abu al-‘Eish, a gynaecologist who works in an Israeli hospital, Amnesty International delegates found fragments of the two 120mm tank shells which were fired by Israeli soldiers into the bedroom of Dr Abu al-‘Eish’s daughters on the afternoon of 16 January. Three of the doctor’s daughters and his niece were killed on the spot and another daughter and niece were seriously injured.

I have to ask, how can anyone look at this scene and reconstruct the events, leading to any conclusions at all about intent? Wouldn't we expect this from militants mixing with civilians?

 

[Evo]

So your argument is simply one of semantics?

Stating that Israel intentionally and with premeditation singled out civilians as targets is ridiculous, IMHO.

Do you have any proof to back up your belief that they did this?

 

[Art]

I have to ask, how can anyone look at this scene and reconstruct the events, leading to any conclusions at all about intent? Wouldn't we expect this from militants mixing with civilians?

WW2 covered a much wider area over a much longer time frame and yet it was possible to reach conclusions and to bring the perpetrators of war crimes to justice. More recently in the former Yugoslavia investigators were able to reconstruct events leading to successful prosecutions of war criminals on all sides.

What is needed in the ME now is a UNSC sanctioned investigation into alleged war crimes by ALL sides followed, where justified, by criminal prosecutions.

 

[Art]

Stating that Israel intentionally and with premeditation singled out civilians as targets is ridiculous, IMHO.

Do you have any proof to back up your belief that they did this?

By inference you are saying the IRC, HRW, UN and Amnesty International, who have all accused Israel of deliberately targeting civilians, are all part of some vast and secret anti-Israel conspiracy as it beggars belief that they could all be simply mistaken. Why do you think they would do that? What in your opinion is their motivation for 'fabricating' stories about Israel? Are they acting alone or in concert? Or do you entertain the thought that perhaps your reading of the situation is very wrong? Occam's razor suggests the latter.

 

[OAQfirst]

WW2 covered a much wider area over a much longer time frame and yet it was possible to reach conclusions and to bring the perpetrators of war crimes to justice. More recently in the former Yugoslavia investigators were able to reconstruct events leading to successful prosecutions of war criminals on all sides.

What is needed in the ME now is a UNSC sanctioned investigation into alleged war crimes by ALL sides followed, where justified, by criminal prosecutions.

Conclusions on intent can be reached in this case where militants are reported as mixed with civilians? Do examples of this exist from WW2?

 

[kyleb]

Stating that Israel intentionally and with premeditation singled out civilians as targets is ridiculous, IMHO.

Do you have any proof to back up your belief that they did this?

I have the evidence of many international observers and investigators reporting as much, in detail. Am I to take it all you have is your opinion? If so, you aren't rightly demonstrating humility here.

 

[OAQfirst]

Amnesty International delegates found fragments from 120mm tank rounds all over Gaza,including in homes where these munitions had killed children and other civilians. Tank rounds are precision munitions. The killings of so many civilians, many in their homes, indicates that these munitions were – at best – used in a reckless or indiscriminate manner. In Jabaliya, north Gaza, at the home of Dr Izz al-Din Abu al-‘Eish, a gynaecologist who works in an Israeli hospital, Amnesty International delegates found fragments of the two 120mm tank shells which were fired by Israeli soldiers into the bedroom of Dr Abu al-‘Eish’s daughters on the afternoon of 16 January. Three of the doctor’s daughters and his niece were killed on the spot and another daughter and niece were seriously injured.

I'm very curious about this report. I watched a video somewhere here that showed a Hamas fighter and, those guys move. Even I can explain this report with speculation alone: Hamas fire from one room, move to another, civilians do their best to get away from them (as targets), but are fired on in that room the militants moved out of for obvious reasons. I just don't see how any conclusions can be made about intent based on this report.

 

[Art]

Conclusions on intent can be reached in this case where militants are reported as mixed with civilians? Do examples of this exist from WW2?

Numerous examples. German reprisals against the French resistance the Greek resistance and just about every other nationalist resistance group which existed within the civilian populations in occupied Europe.

Somehow I don't think trained investigators will find it too hard to get to the bottom of each and every allegation made re Gaza.

 

[Art]

I'm very curious about this report. I watched a video somewhere here that showed a Hamas fighter and, those guys move. Even I can explain this report with speculation alone: Hamas fire from one room, move to another, civilians do their best to get away from them (as targets), but are fired on in that room the militants moved out of for obvious reasons. I just don't see how any conclusions can be made about intent based on this report.

You picked a really, really bad example to make your case. I suggest you google this for Israeli press articles for more information.

This guy was very popular in Israel, he specialised in fertility treatment, and the Israelis were horrified by how he and his family were treated, how initially the IDF tried to deny any involvement (later retracted due to the mountain of evidence found) and how investigations showed there was zero militant activity near his home which was targeted very precisely by a tank.

 

[numb]

The exceptionalist stance: Israel targeted civilian housing and dropped WP shells on UN schools, and bombs on UN warehouses; except those Hamas militants move really fast (I saw it on TV), so Israel must have been legally targeting them; the use of WP in civilian areas is a war crime, but Israel has no choice; UN warehouses were probably being used by Hamas to store weapons (since that's what I heard an Israeli militant say, on the TV); there might be some problems, except Israel only wants peace (like they keep saying on the TV)...

 

[OAQfirst]

You picked a really, really bad example to make your case. I suggest you google this for Israeli press articles for more information.

This guy was very popular in Israel, he specialised in fertility treatment, and the Israelis were horrified by how he and his family were treated, how initially the IDF tried to deny any involvement (later retracted due to the mountain of evidence found) and how investigations showed there was zero militant activity near his home which was targeted very precisely by a tank.

Well, I wasn't making a case. I'm just trying to understand how a conclusion about intent can be based on that report. But I'll google it anyway.

 

[OAQfirst]

I'm coming up dry. Can you kindly provide a link with the report that there was zero militant activity near his home?

EDIT: Hold on here. This is one incident of several reported. Even American GIs committed atrocities in both WWs. So I think this amounts to nitpicking. I'm already of the assumption that crimes were committed on both sides. Now I'm wondering what the intent is with all of this. Prosecute war criminals, sure. But stay focused on the bigger picture.

Sounds about right.

 

[Art]

I'm coming up dry. Can you kindly provide a link with the report that there was zero militant activity near his home?

But on Friday night, Dr Aboul Aish's scheduled live interview with Israeli Channel 10 television was conducted minutes after three of his daughters were killed by an Israeli shell. His raw anguish forced Israelis to take their first real glimpse of the suffering and death caused to Palestinian civilians.

Shlomi Eldar, the Channel 10 correspondent, his own voice choking with emotion, repeatedly noted Dr Aboul Aish's connection to Shiba Hospital as he held out his mobile phone, allowing viewers to hear the physician cry and sob: "My daughters, they killed them, Oh lord, God, God, God."

"I want to save them but they are dead," Dr Aboul Aish said. In a video of the interview, available on YouTube, the physician can be heard imploring for help while a shaken Mr Eldar pleads on air for anyone in the army who might be viewing to let ambulances reach the Aboul Aish home in the Jebalya refugee camp. "Maybe something can still be saved," he said.

Because of the publicity, another of his daughters and a brother were evacuated quickly to Israel for treatment. Other Palestinian civilians have gone without medical care for days.

But it was not just the death of his three daughters, Bisan, Mayar and Aya, 20, 15 and 12 respectively, that left Dr Aboul Aish in anguish yesterday. It was the feeling among some Israelis that he, like many other Gazans who have suffered in the violence, is being blamed for his own tragedy. At Shiba Hospital near Tel Aviv, where a surviving daughter, Sheda, 17, is being treated for shrapnel in the eye, the doctor repeated yesterday that there were no Hamas gunmen firing from his house, as the army suggested yesterday, when two shells hit a bedroom. The army is also saying the UN compound and the hospital were used by gunmen or they were nearby.

"I had left the room seconds earlier. How would gunmen have reached the roof? From where would they have entered?" he asked. The physician, who did his residency at Soroka Hospital in the Israeli city of Beersheba, was adamant he had not allowed his house to be a Hamas firing position. "I have never done anything wrong in my life. If you don't believe Palestinians, ask Israelis who doctor Aboul Aish is. They should just admit they made a mistake. There is no shame in making a mistake, but don't deceive the nation," he said in Hebrew.

An Israeli colleague, Carmi Z Margolis, director of the medical school for international medicine at Ben Gurion University, said: "This is a man known as a man of peace for many years. It's a terrible tragedy. I don't know if there was a sniper but I know the man. It needs to be investigated why they shelled the home of a man of peace in Gaza."

The preponderance of civilian casualties among the more than 1,200 Palestinian dead is only now being gently questioned in the Israeli mainstream media, which has generally accepted at face value the army's explanation that Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...tor-shows-israelis-horror-of-war-1419286.html

You couldn't have tried very hard there are dozens of links to choose from

This was a turning point in the conflict. Mark Regev the Israeli propaganda spokesman first tried to claim it was a Hamas missile hit the house but when journalists found fragments of the shell casings the IDF then tried to claim they thought they saw snipers in/on the house.

The doctor's standing within Israel meant his evidence that there were no snipers was accepted by most Israelis as credible so it at last put a human face on the Palestinian suffering and as the article points out the Israeli public finally began to question their own forces actions.

 

[tiny-tim]

Amnesty International: "War Crimes by Hamas"

Earlier, you selected quotations, and wrote your own summary, of the Amnesty International report, leaving Hamas out completely.

And now you're selectively accusing Israel of murder (by "unlawful targeting and killing of civilians") …

… when they accuse Israel of war crimes and breaches of international humanitarian law then it is perfectly appropriate to say the pressure on Israel to be held accountable is growing and the unlawful targeting and killing of civilians alleged by Amnesty is murder …

More disinformation The accusations made by the IRC the UN, HRW and now Amnesty International that Israel deliberately and indiscriminately targeted civilians resulting in the deaths of those civilians then it is murder, plain and simple.

but not Hamas …

I do not support Hamas' indiscriminate attacks on Israel in the slightest though I suspect if someone would supply them with guided missiles they'd be quite happy to aim only at military targets in Israel.

you go on and on about killing of civilians by Israel being murder (where Israel may or may not have a defence), but as to targeting and killing of civilians by Hamas (to which there would be no defence to a charge of murder), all you have managed to bring yourself to say is that you "do not support" it

 

[Art]

Earlier, you selected quotations, and wrote your own summary, of the Amnesty International report, leaving Hamas out completely.

And now you're selectively accusing Israel of murder (by "unlawful targeting and killing of civilians") …
but not Hamas …you go on and on about killing of civilians by Israel being murder (where Israel may or may not have a defence), but as to targeting and killing of civilians by Hamas (to which there would be no defence to a charge of murder), all you have managed to bring yourself to say is that you "do not support" it

When Hamas kills civilians either deliberately or through indiscriminate rocket fire then of course it is murder.

You seem to have missed the part where I said ALL allegations of war crimes against ALL parties to the conflict should be investigated and ALL people who perpetrated them should be tried and punished.

The difference is absolutely nobody is contesting the point that Hamas' firing of rockets indiscriminately into Israel is a war crime. The reason the discussion is focused so much on Israel is because of the denialists who just will not concede Israel too has committed war crimes. And because of the huge advantage Israel has in weaponry the results of their war crimes in terms of numbers of innocents killed are destined to be proportionally worse.

Just so there will be no future misunderstanding I will state again Hamas militants who kill Israeli civilians are murderers and should be prosecuted as should whoever gives them their orders and the exact same principles shoiuld apply to illegal actions by the IDF and whoever gives them illegal orders.

My belief is international law is the glue that holds the world together and so if we are not to fall back into the pre WW2 mentality of appropriation through conquest then it is vital these laws are upheld. To allow any country to avoid the consequences and repercussions of breaking these laws sets a precedent that others will undoubtedly follow leading to potential world disastor.

 

[OAQfirst]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...tor-shows-israelis-horror-of-war-1419286.html

You couldn't have tried very hard there are dozens of links to choose from

This was a turning point in the conflict. Mark Regev the Israeli propaganda spokesman first tried to claim it was a Hamas missile hit the house but when journalists found fragments of the shell casings the IDF then tried to claim they thought they saw snipers in/on the house.

The doctor's standing within Israel meant his evidence that there were no snipers was accepted by most Israelis as credible so it at last put a human face on the Palestinian suffering and as the article points out the Israeli public finally began to question their own forces actions.

No, I found this article. But might you have something besides a freelance journalist's report?