News Israel PM: State Protection for War Crimes in Gaza

[tiny-tim]

Amnesty International: "War Crimes by Hamas"

You seem to have missed the part where I said ALL allegations of war crimes against ALL parties to the conflict should be investigated and ALL people who perpetrated them should be tried and punished.

That's because it doesn't exist …

you haven't said anything of the sort (in this thread, anyway) …

in this six-page thread you've been selectively quoting from Amnesty International, and selectively accusing Israel of murder but not Hamas …

the one time you chose to comment on Hamas' attacks on Israeli civilian you only said that you "did not support" them …

and now you're not selectively quoting yourself, but actually making up a quote to try to prove that you've not been selective

 

[Art]

No, I found this article. But might you have something besides a freelance journalist's report?

The Independent is a main stream UK newspaper as big in the UK as the NYT in in the USA. Here's a BBC report echoing the same. http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_7878000/7878752.stm Though I suspect this is a case of if you can't challenge the content then challenge the source.

 

[Art]

That's because it doesn't exist …

you haven't said anything of the sort (in this thread, anyway) …

in this six-page thread you've been selectively quoting from Amnesty International, and selectively accusing Israel of murder but not Hamas …

the one time you chose to comment on Hamas' attacks on Israeli civilian you only said that you "did not support" them …

and now you're not selectively quoting yourself, but actually making up a quote to try to prove that you've not been selective

See and read post #77 and then apologise.

 

[OAQfirst]

The Independent is a main stream UK newspaper.

In recent years, [The Independent] has had critical, editorial-style front pages on George W. Bush, Tony Blair, and Israeli government policies. In 2006 Robert Fisk reported soil sample evidence that Israel might have used a "secret new uranium-based weapon" during the 2006 Lebanon War.[7] United Nations and International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) experts determined that as of February 2007 there was no evidence of depleted-uranium-ammunitions.[11][12]

Which is why I'm asking for a different source.

 

[Art]

Which is why I'm asking for a different source.

? There was a UNEP investigation which found no evidence of DU use. Are you saying the Independent was biased in some way for reporting that allegations had been made? If so that is ridiculous. Every newspaper carried the initial allegations and every newspaper reported on UNEP's findings. That's their job.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz also covered the allegations. One could hardly accuse them of being biased against Israel for doing so.

 

[OAQfirst]

The Independent is a main stream UK newspaper as big in the UK as the NYT in in the USA. Here's a BBC report echoing the same. http://news.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_7878000/7878752.stm Though I suspect this is a case of if you can't challenge the content then challenge the source.

Isn't that how it works? If I can't trust the source, then why should I give weight to the content from that source?

But it just comes down to a matter of belief. I don't believe that this report alone is enough to confirm intent. Not that it matters a whole lot. I'm certain there are crimes in this conflict on both sides at every level. I'm just afraid that focusing on the war crimes will divert attention from the bigger picture.

BTW, I really appreciate you taking time to share this with me.

? There was a UNEP investigation which found no evidence of DU use. Are you saying the Independent was biased in some way for reporting that allegations had been made? If so that is ridiculous. Every newspaper carried the initial allegations and every newspaper reported on UNEP's findings. That's their job.

Eh, that's what the article is saying. I see wikipedia quoted left and right here.

 

[tiny-tim]

See and read post #77 and then apologise.

hmm … post #77 … on page 5 …

WW2 covered a much wider area over a much longer time frame and yet it was possible to reach conclusions and to bring the perpetrators of war crimes to justice. More recently in the former Yugoslavia investigators were able to reconstruct events leading to successful prosecutions of war criminals on all sides.

What is needed in the ME now is a UNSC sanctioned investigation into alleged war crimes by ALL sides followed, where justified, by criminal prosecutions.

hmm … I see no allegation by you there that Hamas is guilty of murder or indeed anything …

I repeat … throughout this thread (until your post #89, after my criticism) you have selectively specified Israel as war criminals and murderers (not just alleged murderers), and have not mentioned Hamas at all, except to say that you "did not support" their killings.

 

[Art]

hmm … post #77 … on page 5 …hmm … I see no allegation by you there that Hamas is guilty of murder or indeed anything …

I repeat … throughout this thread (until your post #89, after my criticism) you have selectively specified Israel as war criminals and murderers (not just alleged murderers), and have not mentioned Hamas at all, except to say that you "did not support" their killings.

Are you completely incapable of honesty?

You accused me of making up a quote. I provided the reference now try and be man enough to admit your error and apologise.

Originally Posted by Art View Post

You seem to have missed the part where I said ALL allegations of war crimes against ALL parties to the conflict should be investigated and ALL people who perpetrated them should be tried and punished.

Originally Posted tiny-tim

That's because it doesn't exist …

you haven't said anything of the sort (in this thread, anyway) …

Originally Posted by Art

What is needed in the ME now is a UNSC sanctioned investigation into alleged war crimes by ALL sides followed, where justified, by criminal prosecutions.

I'd have thought falsely accusing someone of lying would be a breach of forum guidelines particularly when you have spurned the opportunity to correct your error so I'll settle for reporting you.

 

[tiny-tim]

You accused me of making up a quote.

I had very good reason (in my post #91) to believe you had made it up (in the second paragraph of your post #89, on page 6).

You didn't quote it, and gave no reference for it.

It contained the words "investigated" and "punished", so I did a word-search for each word (separately) on each of the 6 pages of the thread, and also for "Hamas", and of course found nothing.

It is you who should apologise for putting me to all that trouble.

Even if I had found the quote in post #77, the remainder of the criticism in my post #91 would have been exactly the same, and is still correct …

in this six-page thread you've been selectively quoting from Amnesty International, and selectively accusing Israel of murder but not Hamas …

the one time you chose to comment on Hamas' attacks on Israeli civilian you only said that you "did not support" them …

… a criticism of your selectivity which (approximately) repeats the criticism in my post #88, which you had avoided replying to, and still haven't replied to …

except of course for the quote we're discussing, from your post #77, which confirms my criticism, since it did not accuse Hamas of anything.

 

[OAQfirst]

Hey, folks. I've got some EgoTastic brand ego protection spray for $12 a can. PM me for ordering info.

 

[jreelawg]

Israel has used the claim that their actions are justified because Hamas is indiscriminate while israel has highly precise weapons and is doing everything they can to prevent civilian casualties. However, only 3/13 of Israelis killed are civilians, while 1285 were reported killed on the other side 895 being civilian deaths. So, in reality, Israel has been far more indiscriminate about who they kill. In addition to this, as a result of Israeli air strikes and artillery, tens of thousands of Gazans have been made homeless, and about 400,000 left without running water. All the while, Israel insists here is no humanitarian crisis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict

 

[jostpuur]

Since Amnesty accuses both Hamas and Israel for targeting civilians and committing war crime, then in particular Amnesty accuses Israel for targeting civilians and committing war crime. There should not be disagreement about this simple logical fact.

 

[tiny-tim]

However, only 3/13 of Israelis killed are civilians

During eight years* of artillery bombardment of southern Israeli towns, all the Israelis killed were civilians.

(that's why Israel applied economic sanctions and finally took the recent military action)

How do you make that 3/13?

* to be precise: since 2001 … though i notice the wikipedia article you referred to in its http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict#Background" section says 2005

Since Amnesty accuses both Hamas and Israel for targeting civilians and committing war crime, then in particular Amnesty accuses Israel for targeting civilians and committing war crime. There should not be disagreement about this simple logical fact.

There's no disagreement that Amnesty International accuses Israel for targeting civilians and committing war crime …

what makes you think there is??

where in this or any other thread do you claim anyone has said Amnesty International doesn't accuse Israel of that?

 

[jreelawg]

During eight years* of artillery bombardment of southern Israeli towns, all the Israelis killed were civilians.

(that's why Israel applied economic sanctions and finally took the recent military action)

How do you make that 3/13?

"Israel has stated that 13 Israelis were killed during the fighting,[4] including three civilians.[7] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–2009_Israel–Gaza_conflict

 

[tiny-tim]

"Israel has stated that 13 Israelis were killed during the fighting,[4] including three civilians.[7] "

Are you saying that eight years of artillery bombardment isn't fighting?

Why are you being so selective?

 

[Vals509]

if you expect israel to surrender its soldier well its most likely not to do so. as far as the whole world knows they are very firm on their stance in terrorism and will not comply to others. so what i intend to say is that there is no way in our dreams that israel will convict him unless he has something unbelievable or other countries have put enough pressure on them (very unlikely)

 

[Hans de Vries]

During eight years* of artillery bombardment of southern Israeli towns, all the Israelis killed were civilians. (that's why Israel applied economic sanctions and finally took the recent military action)

Around 30 people were killed during these eight years, an average
of 3.75 per year

The rocket shooting was intolerable for the people of the south. But let me remind you: In five out of the eight years, we were the occupiers of Gaza. So in eight years a couple of thousands of rockets, around 30 people were killed and many were traumatized. And you therefore kill a thousand and demolish a region? Where are the proportions?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,609428,00.html

Such a disproportionality is seen as an extreme form of racism where,
because of maternal DNA, the life of one human being is worth much
more as another.

Israel's proposal to release hundreds of captured Palestinians for a single
abducted Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, is also seen as expression of this form
of racism. (In this case working in the advantage of the Palestinians)

Telling Hillary Clinton that refusing and obstructing humanitarian aid to
hundreds of thousands of Palestinians is necessary because of one man,
abducted Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, is yet again an example of this
bizarre form of racism.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1066821.html

Specially because this assault on Gaza is seen by many as a revenge
for the abduction of Gilad Shalit, just like the war with Hezbollah
was being justified by the abduction of a few Israeli soldiers.

There are many (peaceful) ways in which one can (and should)
express solidarity with the individual Gilad Shalit, but solidarity
should never be an excuse for racism and violence.

Maybe you desperately want Israel to be a civilized nation and you
put up an effort to portray it as such. Well, for me it's people like
Avraham Burg interviewed above who are more encouraging in this
respect. Regards, Hans.

 

[jostpuur]

There's no disagreement that Amnesty International accuses Israel for targeting civilians and committing war crime …

what makes you think there is??

where in this or any other thread do you claim anyone has said Amnesty International doesn't accuse Israel of that?

You criticized Art's post about Amnesty's accusations as misinformative. That gets close to denying the Amnesty's accusations.

Following the alleged (sic) illegal application of military force by Israel, Amnesty International has called for the UN to impose a weapons embargo. It will be interesting to see the new US administration's response.

That (with the four-paragraph quotation which follows it) is a carefully deliberate one-sided summary of the Amnesty International report and news item …

...

One-sided selectivity like this, giving a report a completely different slant, is yet another example of misinformation.

 

[tiny-tim]

You criticized Art's post about Amnesty's accusations as misinformative. That gets close to denying the Amnesty's accusations.

uhh? I kept repeating Amnesty International's accusations …

in this six-page thread you've been selectively quoting from Amnesty International, and selectively accusing Israel of murder but not Hamas …

I repeat … throughout this thread (until your post #89, after my criticism) you have selectively specified Israel as war criminals and murderers (not just alleged murderers), …

I not only didn't deny that Amnesty International made those allegations, I repeated them

You said …

… in particular Amnesty accuses Israel for targeting civilians and committing war crime. There should not be disagreement about this simple logical fact.

There isn't.

I repeat … what makes you think there is??

where in this or any other thread do you claim anyone has said Amnesty International doesn't accuse Israel of that?

 

[Office_Shredder]

Israel's proposal to release hundreds of captured Palestinians for a single
abducted Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, is also seen as expression of this form
of racism. (In this case working in the advantage of the Palestinians)

Racism... by Israel? Hamas asks for hundreds of prisoners to be released, and if Israel complies it's because they're racist... do you see the flaw there?

 

[drizzle]

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/crisisingaza/2009/02/20092209730904880.html"

Testimony from eyewitnesses, friends, neighbours and human rights experts about the incident tell the story of how a woman carrying a baby and white flag was shot in broad daylight by an Israeli soldier.

It’s way complicated, I just wish you all to read and understand both views before judging, to those who have no idea this conflict has such a long history, you need to do a lot of reading. by the way Evo, thanks for deleting my posts

 

[seycyrus]

Let us consider some facts.

Radical muslims have *have* used women and children in their suicide attacks. Sometimes they pretend to be aid workers, sometimes they have carried white flags, sometimes they drive ambulances.

Whose fault is it that what has previously been regarded as a non-threat must now be reevaluated? It's a simple answer folks. This determination of threat level is often times made under the extreme circumstances of war.

Yes mistakes have been made and innocents are killed. It is a terrible tragedy. To claim that Israeli soldiers know that their targets are innocent and intentionally kill them is a ridiculous assertion.

It is much more likely and probably that the thousand of rockets, barrage after barrage, fired into the Israeli cities *are* a deliberate attempt to intentionally kill innocent civilians. Name the legitimate military target.

That Amnsesty International does not publicly and loudly decry EVERY SINGLE rocket directed towards Israel is proof of their bias. Their conclusions and reports must be taken with a grain of salt.

Hamas (and Hezbollah) have a history of making false claims and blatantly exagerating the facts in effort to sway public opinion. The fact that AI and other groups are eager to gobble up these facets of misinformation is a disgrace.

 

[seycyrus]

In the past Israel has released 100s of prisoners for the remains of their dead soldiers. The implication being that even a dead Israeli is worth hundreds of live Arabs.

By your logic, since the *Arabs* agreed to such a swap, and the swap took place, the *Arabs* must believe that as well!

No! The implication is that the Israelis are willing to negotiate and pacify.

Specific to prisoners; Hamas have 1 Israeli captive whilst Israel holds thousands of Palestinians. The taking of 2 prisoners by Hezbollah in Lebanon was used as justification by Israel for bombarding Lebanon killing 1000+ civilians whilst the taking of 1 prisoner by Hamas is currently being used by Israel as an excuse for continuing the blockade of Gaza..

The taking of prisoners is an indication that Hezbollah was at war with Israel. The taking of prisoners is an indication of intent. Israel responds to the intent.

If the Palestinians worked to Israel's scale of retaliation what do you believe would be a proportionate response to Israel's taking of 10,000 prisoners?

Get back to me when Hamas stops sending suicide bombers and rockets towards Israel.

You want to be treated as civilized, then act civilized. <- this is in reference to Hamas.

 

[rootX]

Sometimes they pretend to be aid workers, sometimes they have carried white flags, sometimes they drive ambulances.

Really

 

[jreelawg]

During eight years* of artillery bombardment of southern Israeli towns, all the Israelis killed were civilians.

(that's why Israel applied economic sanctions and finally took the recent military action)

How do you make that 3/13?

I was obviously talking about the recent conflict. If you want to go back in time then I suppose Palastinian deaths would be a different number as well. Why are you selective in pointing out that 3/13 isn't the grand total over an eight year period. Why do you choose eight years?

It would be interesting to see the grand total number of people killed on each side going all the way back, but that would require more research than I have time for, and I have a feeling that it isn't going to make Israeli look like a night in shining armor.

 

[kyleb]

To claim that Israeli soldiers know that their targets are innocent and intentionally kill them is a ridiculous assertion.

Deluding one's self with rhetorical arguments to ignore the reports of international observers and investigators is absurd.

The taking of prisoners is an indication of intent. Israel responds to the intent.

And what intent would you suggest is indicated by keeping millions of people under martial law while colonizing their homeland out from under them and taking prisoner if not killing off anyone who gets in their way over the course of decades?

 

[mjsd]

Yes mistakes have been made and innocents are killed. It is a terrible tragedy. To claim that Israeli soldiers know that their targets are innocent and intentionally kill them is a ridiculous assertion.

Even the Israeli spokepersons were saying that they knew "innocent" ppl were in those buildings when they fired at it, but their excuse was that they were fired at by Hamas first (who continually use civilians as "human shields") and their actions were self-defence.
ok then, the question is not whether they knew or not, it is just whether they intentionally put civilians in danger (well, there is no need to discuss Hamas, as they clearly put civilians in danger...)...
The way I see it is that to fire towards areas where civilians are congregating for whatever reasons, would endanger the lives of these ppl,.. that's a fact. Was these firing justified should Hamas been hiding there?

Well, who should be the judge for that? but I would the ask the question: Would the Israeli soldiers be THAT careless with their guns and missiles, should those civilians are Israelis (eg. hostages)?

 

[mgb_phys]

And what intent would you suggest is indicated by keeping millions of people under martial law while colonizing their homeland out from under them and taking prisoner if not killing off anyone who gets in their way over the course of decades?

The American way?

Can't the palestinians just have casinos?

 

[rootX]

This (these) thread(s) is/are going nowhere but ..

 

[Art]

During eight years* of artillery bombardment of southern Israeli towns, all the Israelis killed were civilians.

(that's why Israel applied economic sanctions and finally took the recent military action)

Do you just sit there and make this stuff up off the top of your head??

Between 29.9.2000 and 26.12.2008

Palestinians killed by Israeli security forces - Gaza 3000 West Bank 1792 Israel 69
Tot = 4,861

Palestinians killed by Israeli civilians - Gaza 4 West Bank 41 Israel 2
Tot = 47

Israeli civilians killed by Palestinians Gaza 39 West Bank 198 Israel 490
Tot = 727

Israeli security force personnel killed by Palestinians Gaza 97 West Bank 148 Israel 90
Tot = 335

and a subset of the above

Palestinian minors killed by Israeli security forces - Gaza 635 West Bank 317 Israel 3
Tot = 995

Israeli minors killed by Palestinians - Gaza 4 West Bank 35 Israel 84
Tot = 123

Source http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties.asp

And so this idea some are trying to promote that Israel sat there and took a pounding from Hamas rockets for years before finally responding is seen to be a total myth.

Even before the recent bombardment of the Gaza Strip nearly as many Palestinian children alone have been killed as the total amount of Israeli casualties, including all civilians and military.

Much is made of the indiscriminate nature of the Palestinian's attacks on Israel and yet extraordinarily out of a total kill score of 4,861 the number of innocent civilians Israel admits killing is 2,222 with a further 828 they are not sure about. And bear in mind protesters killed for throwing stones are counted as militants whilst heavily armed militant Israeli 'settlers' are counted as civilians. (see videos of settler attacks on Palestinians here http://www.btselem.org/English/Video/CDP_Index.asp )

As noted in the data table referenced, Palestinian fatality figures do not include those who died due to medical conditions as a result of the restriction of movement imposed on the Palestinians in incidents such as these

Ahmad Ramadan Muhammad Wakhman

Under 1 year-old resident of Nablus, died on 12.11.2006 , Nablus district, following a delay in receiving medical care. Additional information: Week-old infant on his way to hospital in Nablus for treatment. The driver of the car was beaten by soldiers at the checkpoint when he went over to them to explain the infant's grave medical condition.

Na'el 'Abd a-Rahman Khamis al-Kurdi

21 year-old resident of Gaza city, died on 17.11.2007 in Gaza city, following a delay in receiving medical care. Additional information: a cancer patient, Israel refused to let him leave the Gaza Strip to obtain medical treatment

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties_data.asp?Category=21&region=TER