Karma is a logically scientific concept?

[Sprinter]

Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done and is currently doing. The effects of those deeds actively create present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well.

Do you think karma is a logically scientific concept and can be proven to be true?

 

[Pengwuino]

Well unless anyone has a clue as to what it is and how it actually works and methods of creation, no.

It's a pretty unscientific idea too. Everything in science is objective while hte idea of "responsibility" and "making someone happier" etc etc is completely subjective. It's like asking if the sun's light is less intense if your sad today. The light doesn't know or care, its a subjective idea and science doesn't seem to like subjectiveness.

 

[Serene_Chaos]

karma might be true, but i think it would have more to do with intentions than actual actions.sometimes actions with good intentions may have negative effects, what happens to your karma then?

 

[mrj]

Hi

You might be interested in the Buddhist forum www.e-sangha.com .
Although I'm not a believer myself, they do have a wide range of topics including some on karma.
mrj

 

[kuahji]

I believe Karma can be scientifically defined. I'll use an example to portray what I mean. If I go to a gas station & give the cleric a hard time for no reason, the cleric will most likely carry that over to the customer after me. So, the customer after myself then comes to my workplace later in the day & gives me an attitude. Or perhaps it'll give the customer road rage & cause an accident. See how my actions have caught up with myself? This is obiviously a crude explanation, but it's the general idea. Basically, if you go around & do "bad" things, it'll spread like an infectious disease, & vice versa with doing good deads. I like to view karma as cause & effect rather than some mystical force.

 

[fargoth]

there are so many people around you, the probability you'd do something that affects you is very low... its like thinking throwing a rock to a stormy sea would make it even more stormy...
when you're happy, look on the bright side of life, and help to others, good things happen because you notice them more then the bad things, and vice versa, that's my explanation to karma.
its a great feeling to be optimistic and happy, you don't need any scientific reason for it.
i love the feeling i get when i make others happy as myself, and i think life just gets better every moment.
and its pretty good right now too

 

[kuahji]

there are so many people around you, the probability you'd do something that affects you is very low... its like thinking throwing a rock to a stormy sea would make it even more stormy...
when you're happy, look on the bright side of life, and help to others, good things happen because you notice them more then the bad things, and vice versa, that's my explanation to karma.
its a great feeling to be optimistic and happy, you don't need any scientific reason for it.
i love the feeling i get when i make others happy as myself, and i think life just gets better every moment.
and its pretty good right now too

There are many people, but that's my point. Your action spreads to one person than to another. Now you got two upset people, we infect two more. Understand? It's obivious some people just brush it off, but I can't tell you the number of times I've gotten an irate customer at work & I've carried over my upset feelings to the next customer.

 

[fargoth]

the butterfly effect exists, but it doesn't mean that it affects you for the worse, even if bad actions are what made it happen in the first place.

 

[kuahji]

the butterfly effect exists, but it doesn't mean that it affects you for the worse, even if bad actions are what made it happen in the first place.

Which is why I stated it works vice versa.

 

[fargoth]

i think that people that believe in karma would even say that the butterfly effect would affect those with good karma for the better and thos with bad karma for the worse, it doesn't matter who created the first "wave" and with what action (i.e. "good" or "bad")
i don't think that the chaos theory would help this statement..

 

[sameandnot]

what about those with no karma?

 

[Sprinter]

So, can i conclude that karma only happens by chance?

 

[kuahji]

So, can i conclude that karma only happens by chance?

That's only my take on the subject. But yes, in that particular version it would be chance & chance alone.

 

[fargoth]

if youd give more weight to good thing that happen to you over bad things, youd notice them more often and be happier.
optimism is good karma in my view, and it doesn't happen by chance.
but karma in the more known form (i.e. the way it was introduced by sprinter in the top of this thread) isn't explained well by the butterfly effect because it happens only by chance if you want to explain it by the butterfly effect.

so the butterfly effect is not a good explanation, karma is supposed to be related to ones soul, rewarding people with good karma and punnishing those with bad karma, and that is not scientific (we can't see, or measure it in any way, so there's no way to know if you carry good/bad karma from previuos life). so scientifically you can't say anything about karma, it may or may not exist.
only when you finished your iterations on Earth and join the perfect souls, would you know if it was true or not.

 

[stev]

What is the difference between karma, and the explanation of disease and death used centuries ago - that it was caused by some kind of wrongdoing by the person with the misfortune.

I thought the very notion of medical science disprooves this?

 

[fargoth]

in the case of desease, the real cause has been found, thus disprooving the belief it was a punnishment from god or whatever they thought it was (some thought bad smell caused it).
but in the case of karma, there's no way to disproove its existence.
by the statement that the count is related to a soul, and that the soul can live many times, you can't really make any measurement.
and because this isn't an observable phenomena, you can't find any other "real" cause to replace karma.
this is why karma is not a scientific thing - it doesn't make any measureable predictions.

 

[matrixx333]

Buddha had an idea called the "chain of conditioned arising". In it, he described that for every thought, action, and word we speak, we are conditioning the next thought, action and word we will have in the future.

I believe that this ties in strongly with karma. I feel the only way that we can scientifically prove whether it is correct or incorrect, is to become the scientist of our own lives.

I know from experience that what Buddha is speaking of is true (to my own perception of reality). When I leave for work, and forget to close the curtains in my apartment, my apartment is hot when I get home. And because the apartment is hot, I am uncomfortable. The "lack of" thought in this case affected my karma. Also, the chain of conditioned arising has to do with habits. If you smoke a pack and a half of cigarettes a day, and get lung cancer, don't you think that your habits affected your karma?

 

[fargoth]

you seem to connect karma with causality... but this is not the case, karma is carried over to next lives, and isn't the immidiate rewards\punnishments for your actions.
and because there's no way to track one's soul, there can be no experiment concerning karma.

 

[matrixx333]

Fargoth, thank you for correcting me. I see where I was connecting karma with causality. I also agree with the statement that karma is carried over to next lives.

I also agree that there can be no real "experiment" to prove whether karma exists, that is why I was suggesting observation (in our own lives). Similar to how cosmology studies the universe, using observations.

 

[kuahji]

you seem to connect karma with causality... but this is not the case, karma is carried over to next lives, and isn't the immidiate rewards\punnishments for your actions.
and because there's no way to track one's soul, there can be no experiment concerning karma.

In my point of view, it was speaking more for the scientific mind. Past & future lives can not be proved, we don't even know if there is an after life. However, cause & effect can be proved.

 

[fargoth]

In my point of view, it was speaking more for the scientific mind. Past & future lives can not be proved, we don't even know if there is an after life. However, cause & effect can be proved.

yes, but my point is that cause and effect is not relevant here, because people with good karma may get the "reward" in the next life.

 

[kuahji]

yes, but my point is that cause and effect is not relevant here, because people with good karma may get the "reward" in the next life.

I don't see why it wouldn't. Cause & effect "could" very well still take place. Take for example, if you're a warlord & you've killed many but somehow you die in the battles. What if you were reincarnated on the loosing side? Or for another example, if everyone pitched into help out & ebloshed world hunger, you simply can't be born into world hunger. The same would go for poverty, how could you been born into poverty if it doesn't exist? Cause & effect. Unless of course, you were reincarnated on a planet somewhere across the universe, then I'm not sure how this idea would hold true.

 

[matrixx333]

Karma
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Karma or "Karm"(Sanskrit: कर्म from the root kri, "to do", meaning deed) or Kamma (Pali: meaning action, effect, destiny) is a term in several eastern religions that comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done and is currently doing. The effects of those deeds actively create present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well.

 

[fargoth]

"karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well."

and because of this it doesn't obey cause and effect in a way we can observe it, because we can see only one little fraction that is one life... and the effect of the cause can come in other life.

it may be that you directly suffer the effects of your deeds, I am not saying that can't happen, all I am saying is that it isn't necessarily so. and its even more probable that what happens to us in one lifetime is influenced more by past lives then by this life - so you can try and explain good things that happen to you by cause-effect, but then you wouldn't (necessarily) be talking about karma.

and because of this we can't proove or disproove karma - making it non-scientific.

and that's what this thread was all about.

 

[onlyOne]

you can feel it, forgoth. you know it by the quality of your being and experiencing; by the ease with which you "harmonize contained conflicts"; the extent that you are free, at peace; by the enchantment found in the simplest act of being.

it sucks to suck. everyone knows that.

 

[emrandel]

Well, that's really just an over complication of: "Your past AND present determines your future." Now this is a pretty logical statement... what you've done and are doing will effect what you're going to do. And yes, it would be proven true easily.

 

[Serpo]

There is no such conception as karma without expectation. Expectation is derived from desire. Without desires karma ceases to exist. Therefore we come to the conclusion that karma is only a byproduct of human desires for a greater unknown in some kind of matrix that always comes out to a perfect harmony. Fortunately this isn't true and karma only exists in ones head. As far as cause and effect go, sure if I throw a ball in the air it will come back down as long as gravity is present. Yet I'm pretty sure this thread was started assessing a different meaning of karma.

 

[sameandnot]

Well, that's really just an over complication of: "Your past AND present determines your future." Now this is a pretty logical statement... what you've done and are doing will effect what you're going to do. And yes, it would be proven true easily.

or, "your past AND present determines your future" is your interpretation and has no relation to the post... i meant what i said.

serpo's on to it, i think.

where is karma? who has karma?
-these are not silly questions.

 

[Serpo]

In more simple terms, what I was saying is; There are two types of karma, cause and effect, which is true, and faith based(or human expectation/desire/want/need induced)... which is not. To answer your last two questions. Where is karma? That depends on what type of karma you are talking about, it's either all around us, or not here at all.
Who has karma? I don't think it's possible to attain karma. Unless it's cause and effect. Faith based karma is not absolute. I can be married to my wife for 50 years, cheated on her 5 times in our tenth year of marriage, never tell her, and then live happily ever after because she never found out. Is that karma? You see? Some say "what goes around comes around" ... now that's just silly... and only true to an extent. 2+2 is only valid when it comes out to 4 everytime. You get what I'm saying? As long as we keep everything scientific and mathematical we're just fine, as soon as we start perverting reality with the want for that greater diety controlling our lives, we slip into the faith based beliefs which are never absolute... therefore in my eyes, are just chance happenings made into an absolute definition, which is completely paradoxical and false.

 

[sameandnot]

this leads us to: where is cause and effect? (which may go a little too far for this forum and moderation...)

if there is no conceptualization, there can be no 'cause-effect' or 'karma'. the two have dependent origination of and in conceptualization... as concepts.

can we say?: the mind is conceptualization.

ya know, if you don't judge (which is to conceptualize), then nothing...

 

[Serpo]

Right, I think we're onto each other. Let's stop judging so hard as a society, and leave science up to science... you know? We all live, and things happen. Some say they happen for a reason. Others believe they just happen because we're here, and something has to happen in order for the future to exist(randomization). Let's just be gatherers of evidence, if there is no tangible evidence present, then let it rest. Karma :1.) Cause and effect... yes, it exists(gravity etc, science and math based). 2.) If you punch someone, they will always punch you back... does not exist. We are all humans, we are living thinking entities, we are not bound to someone elses definition or desire(non-scientific, faith based, wishful thinking, insecure of the unknown, mythological). I'm really busy right now, so I'm having trouble explaining myself as well as I'd like, If there's anything you want me to go over and clarify, go ahead and tell me. Thanks for the convo by the way, it's nice, I feel enlightened.

 

[quantumcarl]

Do you think karma is a logically scientific concept and can be proven to be true?

The ancient meaning of Karma in India is "motion".

Check out this article:

http://www.indiaheritage.com/science/motion.htm

 

[sameandnot]

quantumcarl... that link didn't work for me.

i read the Buddha as having said that karma is reciprocation. (don't quote me, as i haven't quoted him).

i do not see how science could refute that there is a "proper" reciprocation of all events.

what they might find discrepancy in is the definition of "proper". this, i don't think, is of any major concern, as reciprocation, in the strict meaning of the term, is always proper... whether humans properly reciprocate or not, reciprocaton (karma) will work out the effects of causes, multidimensionally (...cosmically, galactically, solar systemically, planetarily, eco-systemically, sociologically, individually, cellularly, molecularly, atomically, electrically...)

to know the entirety of reciprocation is to be able to know and predict (precisely), any moment of time in the history and future of the universe, at every level, the events and conditions of it.

 

[sameandnot]

but, of course, to know the truth of reciprocation is to discern the path of "right action."

the Buddha taught the 8-fold path.

Right View
Right Resolve
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

this is the resolution of the chains of karma, as taught by the Awakened One.

 

[quantumcarl]

It really is too bad you couldn't see that page. Its been blown out of the ether. Must be bad karma.

It was cool because it listed all the terminology for force, acceleration and mass in Indian terms. These terms for these phenomena were conceptualized 2300 to 2800 y ago. The thing the site said they missed was Newton's f=ma formula.

What I gleened from this page... a small entry... was that Karma describes Motion... this includes thoughts and actions since thoughts create a wave or field as much as an action does.

This will also relate to motion and action in terms of whoever said

"for every action there is an equal and opposite re-action".

Obvious links to the common concept of Karma as seen by buddists and swamis today. Thank you.

 

[sameandnot]

word. maybe we can find a similar page... i'll do a search.

 

[sameandnot]

i found a lot, but nothing quite like you mentioned, though i saw the link "out-there". i did find some very interesting things.

note that these 5, main postulates are in the Nyaya-Vaisesika Sutra. it was, i think, the Vaisesika's who established a physics.

1. All of the universe is composed of the 5 mahabhuttas and the 4 non physicals: that is Fluid, Atomic elements, fields/force, energy, ether and space, time, mind and soul.

2. Except ether, all of the physical elements are made of discreet and distinct paramanus or atoms

3. Space-time is a frame in which the physical universe exists

4.there are seven categories of experience, which are substance, quality, activity, generality, particularity, inherence, and non-existence.

5. Energy and mass are equivalent.

the page is here: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread120045/pg1

google: "Vaisesika physics"
or search around with like terms, that you find while searching...

 

[quantumcarl]

i found a lot, but nothing quite like you mentioned, though i saw the link "out-there". i did find some very interesting things.
note that these 5, main postulates are in the Nyaya-Vaisesika Sutra. it was, i think, the Vaisesika's who established a physics.
the page is here: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread120045/pg1
google: "Vaisesika physics"
or search around with like terms, that you find while searching...

Very nice info.

Here's this russian dude I've been looking for who had a string of equations for karma... his interview is on a hokie site but he is a physics engineer from Moscow.

Boris Iskakov who was born in Magnitogorsk on November 14, 1934.
He is a graduate of the Institute of Physical Engineering in Moscow.

... In this work he endeavors to synthesize elements of science
and religion. Dr. Iskakov has recently been interrogated and we
would share the interview with you.

... The interview comes from Russian documents so we will meander
through the translations as best we can and at least you will be
introduced to such as "leptons", etc.

the rest of the interview is @

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos648.htm

Another somewhat flakey site with some info on physics as applied to karma.

Far be it from me to disagree with someone who has been called the "Einstein of consciousness;" but I tend to think in physics a lot and occasionally find some remarkable similarities between this mundane realm and the loftier reaches of mind and spirit. Such is the case with karma.

The connection comes about in this manner: The goal of physics is to understand the infinite diversity of physical phenomena in terms of the least possible number of principles or "laws." During its relatively short history physics has made remarkable progress toward this goal with the identification of four basic interactions or force laws: gravity, electromagnetism, strong (nuclear), and weak (radioactive decay). There is a strong possibility that even further unification can be achieved.

The full article, @

http://www.epcomm.com/fmbr/editoral/phykarma.htm

That's all I get that's going to come close to supporting an objective study of the concept of karma.

 

[quantumcarl]

word. maybe we can find a similar page... i'll do a search.

The diligent people at the Indian Heritage website have restored the page I linked, not to be discouraged by the wasted time of spammers, hackers and updates... and here it is again:

http://www.indiaheritage.com/science/motion.htm

very cool info.

 

[sameandnot]

nice, quantumcarl!

that link @ abovetopsecret.com forum is actually very extensive. indigo_child provides a few very insightful pages of info on "vedic physics". i have been involved with this (ATS) forum for the past few days now... some stuff is very, very, very, very far out... conspiracy stuff, but there is a lot of very good and sound information being shared there.

i am excited to check out this link that has been restored. the vedas are absolutely amazing! i can't stress that enough. an incredible feat of human understanding.

really, when you think about science... given that it is entirely founded in logic... what is so improbable in some very gifted geniouses deriving the vast abstractions of logic, through reason, intuition and experiences, by way of objective inquiry? nothing is very improbable in that! quite the contrary...

but there is a prejudice amongst the intellectuals and academics of the west (which may be a much more wide-spread psychological disorder) that, informally, says that "it's not real unless there is obvious and blatant reason to think so." playing it safe is one thing, but the plain lack of self-confidence in one's capacity to know, is harmful. i think.

ok... thanks to ATS i am awake @ 3:20 a. now i will go read some karma physics, c/o quantumcarl... thanks buddy!

goodnight.

 

[kuahji]

To add to my view, I believe the original idea of karma is a myth & it was perhaps due to coinsidence or cause & effect. For example, Picture a person that gets angry out their spouse for whatever reason. That person then goes to a gas station & let's their anger out on the clerk working there. The clerk then is frustrated & passes the frustration or anger to another person. Eventually, that "can" come back to the original person if it spreads far enough. This is obliviously a rudimentary description of karma or cause & effect.

For those that believe in reincarnation, picture this... Suppose you are war lord & you cause mass amounts of violence. If you raise the total amount of violence in the world by say 5%, then when you reincarnate you'll have a 5% greater chance to be born into a violent area (unless you reincarnate on the other side of the universe). Or suppose, we all worked together & eliminated poverty (poverty is now at 0%). How then, can someone be born into poverty? Basically, what I'm saying is that our "karma" is interlinked. If I raise the poverty rate, or start a war, then there is a greater chance I'd be reborn into them.

To sum everything up, "karma" is really cause & effect. If you do good things, then there is a greater chance good things will come back to you... only because you have just raised the overall percentage of goodness in the world (of course others can work against it & reduce the percentage). I hope that all made sense...

 

[quantumcarl]

Do you think karma is a logically scientific concept and can be proven to be true?

I have tried to bring Karma into the realm of physics as an equation or formula on this forum for about 5 years now.

Of course I found physics formuli on the net and of course they were Russian.

They were wonderfull compilations that may have well have been in Russian because I read Physics equations as well as I read Russion... in efficiently... I can barely spell equation to begin with.

But one of the underlying themes of karma is Chaos theory. The part of that theory that explains how one... seemingly small... incident... over time... ends up influencing a very large and catastrophic incident to occur.

Karma seems to point to the fact that history cannot be changed but it directly affects the present and the future. This is because the past is a blueprint for all that we know today.

And this is how I would explain karma.

Also... it is often ignored but the word Karma is from India. In Hindu or another language I am unfamiliar with it means "motion".

So... Karma is a scientific concept simply because of the fact that the word describes a physical attribute that has been the focus of many many years of studies by physicists. How can it be anything else?

How people interpret the word "Karma" is another story. In reality it is a designation that describes "Motion".

Is "Consequence" a scientific concept?
Because that's what "Karma" has come to mean to many people.

 

[Parabox]

Karma exists, in so far that your actions have consequences

poor actions, often yield poor aftereffects

 

[quantumcarl]

Karma exists, in so far that your actions have consequences

poor actions, often yield poor aftereffects

Exacterably... Karma = Motion. A poorly engineered motion will yield a string of other poorly engineered motions. Does the proliferation of motion grow, dissipate or involve a homogenous amount of energy that simply transforms over time?

A poorly engineered motion is "poorly engineered" as a result of a badly engineered motion that came before it... and so on.

What determines a poorly engineered motion, or a well engineered motion?
Does the determination soley rely on the opinion of a human that determines this quality? ..Probably.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Does the proliferation of motion grow, dissipate or involve a homogenous amount of energy that simply transforms over time?

This is the question of ergodicity. Does the system settle down with all motion modes sharing equal amounts of energy, or does it cycle through certain states, or does it maybe do something else? Different systems, different answers, and when does which happen has been a hot topic in differential equations for sixty years and counting.

 

[quantumcarl]

This is the question of ergodicity. Does the system settle down with all motion modes sharing equal amounts of energy, or does it cycle through certain states, or does it maybe do something else? Different systems, different answers, and when does which happen has been a hot topic in differential equations for sixty years and counting.

Does this question or study include the fact that energy (motion) cannot be created or destroyed?

Because this postulate seems to answer the question. It is all the same amount of energy shifting around and transforming... but never proliferating or dilapidating.

However, one idea I have is that motion tends to cause the disipation or dispersion of matter and that over time matter is reduced back to its original wave function or field. The field is reduced as well since it is also in motion and this causes an imbalance that is corrected by... a big bang. (no laughing please)

 

[Canute]

As I understand it the key factor in karmic causality is motivation. If one performs an act with 'good' intentions it will have different consequences from the same act performed with 'bad' intentions. (Let's not worry about what good and bad mean for the moment). The reason for this is that while physical cause and effect applies to the states of physical systems, karmic cause and effect applies to 'consciousness' (as defined in theories of karma). The nature of the act itself is irrelevant to physical causation and the notions of good and bad are meaningless. However, as someone said earlier, just as physical states evolve deterministically so do conscious states. Thus for karmic consequences the nature of the act becomes less important and the conscious motivation all-important. The laws of karma are said to operate just as determistically as physical causation.

David Chalmers argues that the features of the world are 'psychophysical', i.e. they have two aspects. In this case it seems to make sense that causation has two aspects also. Physical causation is still something of a riddle in physics (i.e. raises difficult philosophical issues) so if karmic causation does as well I suppose this would not be surprising.

Quantumcarl - I'm not laughing. Do you see the BB singularity as the 'superatom' spoken of by physicists in connection with Bose-Einstein condensates?