Klein-Gordon Equation: Derivation of Density Relativistic Transform

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the density transformation in the context of the Klein-Gordon (KG) equation, particularly focusing on how the density must transform like the time component of a four-vector. Participants explore the implications of this transformation within relativistic quantum theory and the role of conserved currents.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the origin of the density expression presented in Ryder's work, suggesting it appears arbitrary.
  • Another participant argues that a one-particle description is insufficient in relativistic quantum theory, advocating for the use of quantized fields and Poincare invariant actions.
  • A participant explains the derivation of the KG equation from a Lagrangian density and discusses the necessity of coupling to the electromagnetic field for charged scalar bosons.
  • One participant introduces the continuity equation and relates the density to the time component of a four-vector, suggesting that this relationship is evident from the divergence of the current.
  • Another participant expresses curiosity about deriving the density without positing the current, indicating a desire for alternative approaches.
  • A later reply references Peskin and Schroeder's work on deriving the conserved current using Noether's theorem, indicating a realization of a more formal approach to the problem.
  • One participant admits a lack of sufficient knowledge in quantum field theory (QFT) and refrains from delving into Lagrangian discussions at this time.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the adequacy of the one-particle description in relativistic contexts, with some advocating for field theory approaches. There is no consensus on the best method to derive the density or the necessity of the current for this derivation.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note limitations in the interpretation of the density as a probability density due to its non-positive definiteness, as mentioned in Ryder's text. The discussion also reflects varying levels of familiarity with quantum field theory and related mathematical frameworks.

Matterwave
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Hello, I have a question. In Ryder chapter 2, he develops the KG equation and says something along the lines of "the density, in order to be relativistic, must transform like the time component of a 4 vector" and he immediately gives:
[tex]\rho=\frac{i\hbar}{2m}\left(\phi^*\frac{\partial \phi}{\partial t}-\phi\frac{\partial \phi^*}{\partial t}\right)[/tex]

Where did this come from? Seems like he just pulled it out of thin air...o.o
 
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Well, that's anyway not a very good explanation. First of all, in relativistic quantum theory, a one-particle description doesn't make sense (except for free particles), and thus one should immediately use quantized fields rather than classical fields.

Then, the idea is to get relavistically covariant field equations (for the field operators). Thus the most convenient starting point is a Poincare invariant action with a Lagrange density that depends only on the fields and the first space-time derivatives. For the free field there should be no higher powers of field operators and their derivatives than 2nd. Thus, the most simple possibility is

[tex]S[\phi]=\int \mathrm{d}^4 x [(\partial_{\mu} \phi^\dagger)(\partial^{\mu} \phi) - m^2 \phi^{\dagger} \phi ].[/tex]

Hamilton's principle leads to the Klein-Gordan equation,

[tex](\Box+m^2) \phi=(\Box+m^2) \phi^{\dagger}=0.[/tex]

Now, if you want to interpret the field operator to describe, e.g., the electromagnetics of charged scalar bosons, you need to couple this to the electromagnetic field in a gauge invariant way since the electromagnetic field is described by a massless vector field, and if you do not describe it as a gauge field already the representation theory of the Poincare group tells you said all hell breaks loose. So better describe it as a gauge field.

The standard description is to substitute

[tex]\partial_{\mu} \rightarrow D_{\mu}=\partial_{\mu}+\mathrm{i} q A_{\mu}.[/tex]

Then the variation of the corresponding action and setting [tex]A_{\mu}=0[/tex] leads to the conserved electromagnetic current for a free Klein-Gordon field,

[tex]j_{\mu} = \mathrm{i} q (\phi^{\dagger} \partial_{\mu} \phi - (\partial \mu \phi^{\dagger}) \phi).[/tex]

Imho that's the most physically motivated explanation for using this expression as the four-current density of a Klein-Gordon field, and its time component is (the operator representing) the charge density of the corresponding Bose particles.
 
One way of seeing p as the time component:
If I recall right...
Your problem can be solved by writting the continuity equation:
dp/dt = div[J]
where p is the density and J is the current.
or in other words the 4-D equation:
D[itex]_{μ}[/itex] J[itex]^{μ}[/itex]=0

where

J[itex]^{μ}[/itex]= (p, Jx,Jy,Jz)

As you can see straightforward from this, p is indeadly transformed as the time component of a 4vector.

Now why it has that form, I don't have Ryder to check straightforward, but generally by the form of Klein Gordan equation you can see that the Current is the divergence of the quantity:
[itex]\nabla[/itex][J]=[itex]\frac{ih}{2m}[/itex] (φ* [itex]\frac{d^{2}φ}{dt^{2}}[/itex] - φ [itex]\frac{d^{2}φ*}{dt^{2}}[/itex])

and from there you see that the time derivative of your given p is truly giving you the divergence of current, and comes as the solution of the continuity equation
 
@Vanhees: I am aware that the one particle description is inadequate (Ryder says this later on in the chapter after giving arguments such as the density is not positive definite and so cannot be interpreted as a probability density), I was just wondering where he got that particular expression all of a sudden.

@Morgoth: I think I got it. If I posit the continuity equation and the (3) current, then I can get the density. Is there perhaps some way to get the density without positing the current? It seems you need one to get the other.
 
i don't think there is, since the DJ=0 shows a conservation and that conservation means that "particles" are not created or lost, as you already know from the continuity equation... It is rather fundamental ...
 
I just looked at Peskin and Schroeder and they showed how to derive this "conserved current" using Noether's theorem on the KG Lagrangian. I should have realized that this could be done earlier. =]
 
well in fact I don't know but I personally have not sufficient knowledge over QFT, so i would not fall into Lagrangians for KG (for now).
Of course conserved quantities in QM hide some kind of Symmetry of Lagrangian and Noether's theorem can be used...
 

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