Lagrangian and Euler-Lagrange Equation Problem

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a problem involving Lagrangian mechanics, specifically focusing on a body of mass m on a frictionless plane that is inclined at a variable angle θ = at over time. Participants are tasked with deriving the Lagrangian and the Euler-Lagrange equations for the system.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the formulation of the Lagrangian, with one attempting to express it in terms of kinetic and potential energy. There are questions about the origin of specific terms in the Lagrangian, particularly the ma² term, and how to interpret the potential energy associated with gravity.

Discussion Status

Some participants have made progress in understanding the kinetic and potential energy components of the problem. Hints have been provided regarding the nature of the ma² term, and there is an ongoing exploration of how to express kinetic energy in terms of velocity components. The discussion is active, with participants seeking clarification and validation of their reasoning.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating through the complexities of Lagrangian mechanics, with some expressing uncertainty about their notation and understanding. There is a focus on ensuring that the expressions for energy are correctly identified, and assumptions about the system's setup are being questioned.

Yeah Way
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First off, apologies if this is in the wrong forum, if my notation is terrible, or any other signs of noobishness. I just started university and I'm having a hard time with my first Lagrange problems. Help would be very much appreciated.

1. Homework Statement

A body of mass m is lying on a smooth, frictionless plane. The plane, which is originally horizontal, is lifted up at one end at a constant rate such that the angle of the plane with the horizontal at time t is θ = at.
This problem comes with a diagram which includes an arrow pointing down labled g. I presume this is a constant force g from gravity?

Homework Equations


I need to show that the lagrangian of the body, expressed in terms of the distance q from the base of the plane where it hits the horizontal, is
L = 1/2(mqdot^2) + 1/2(ma^2q^2) - mgqsin(at)

Also, determine the Euler-Lagrange equations for the system


The Attempt at a Solution


I understand that L = T - V and T = 1/2(mqdot^2), V = 1/2(kq^2); but after that, I'm just not sure what to do to make it look like it's presented in the problem. I'm not even sure what k should be for V. ma^2 ? If so, could someone explain why?

Thank you very much for reading.
 
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Hint: The ma^2 term does not come from the potential energy.
 
Orodruin said:
Hint: The ma^2 term does not come from the potential energy.
Thank you very much! Thanks to the hint, I was able to get somewhere during my break at work today.
So, I think I've worked out that the 1/2(mqdot^2) is the kinetic energy from the ball moving along the surface and the 1/2(ma^2q^2) is from the ball being moved upwards as the slope rises.

Since I'm working with gravity, V is obviously just mgh! xD So yeah, I've figured that part out too.

All I need to do now is find a nice way to express how I know what the kinetic energy is. Could you please give me an example?
 
Yeah Way said:
Thank you very much! Thanks to the hint, I was able to get somewhere during my break at work today.
So, I think I've worked out that the 1/2(mqdot^2) is the kinetic energy from the ball moving along the surface and the 1/2(ma^2q^2) is from the ball being moved upwards as the slope rises.

Since I'm working with gravity, V is obviously just mgh! xD So yeah, I've figured that part out too.

All I need to do now is find a nice way to express how I know what the kinetic energy is. Could you please give me an example?
If ##\vec{v}_1## and ##\vec{v}_2## are the velocity components along two perpendicular directions ##\vec{d}_1## and ##\vec{d}_2##, then isn't the kinetic energy just equal to
\text{K.E.} = \frac{1}{2} m \left( \vec{v}_1 \cdot \vec{v}_1 + \vec{v}_2 \cdot \vec{v}_2 \right) ?

You can get convenient perpendicular components by looking at the positions of the particle at two nearby times ##t## and ##t + \Delta t##, as shown in the attached figure.
 

Attachments

Ray Vickson said:
You can get convenient perpendicular components by looking at the positions of the particle at two nearby times tt and t+Δtt + \Delta t, as shown in the attached figure.
I think the easiest way is to simply consider polar coordinates in the plane of rotation. The rotation then implies a constraint ##\theta = at## on the angle.
 
Part two of the question asks me to find the Euler-Lagrange Equation of motion of the mass. I'll just put up my answer here and if one of you could please tell me if I'm right or off the mark, I'd be grateful. Once again, thanks for all the help so far.

mqdoubledot + mgSinat - ma^2q = 0
 

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