Lagrangian equation from this free body diagram

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the Lagrangian mechanics equation from a free body diagram involving two wheels: a bottom wheel with mass M and radius R, and a top wheel with mass m and radius r. The angles θ₁ and θ₂ represent their respective angles from the vertical, while their angular velocities are denoted as \dot{θ}₁ and \dot{θ}₂. The participants are exploring the relationships between these variables and how they contribute to the kinetic and potential energy in the Lagrangian formulation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the possibility of the bottom wheel sliding and the implications of the top wheel being fixed to the bottom wheel. There are suggestions to express the positions of the wheels in terms of their angles and to derive the Lagrangian from these expressions. Some participants question the interaction between the two wheels and how to account for their motions in the kinetic energy terms.

Discussion Status

The discussion is active, with participants providing insights into the relationships between the variables and suggesting methods to derive the Lagrangian. There is a recognition that the setup simplifies the calculations, and some participants are working through the implications of the wheels' motions on the kinetic and potential energy terms.

Contextual Notes

There is a mention of the small wheel acting as a motor for the larger wheel, which influences the assumptions about their interactions. The discussion also touches on the complexity of the problem, likening it to an inverted pendulum scenario.

Hyperian
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Homework Statement


Here's the free body diagram with variables.
txbPQ.png

I am looking for the lagrangian mechanics equation.
M is mass of the bottom wheel.
m is the mass of the top wheel.
R is the radius of the bottom wheel.
r is the radius of the top wheel.
θ_{1} is the angle from vertical of the bottom wheel.
θ_{2} is the angle from vertical of the top wheel.
\dot{θ}_{1} is the angular velocity of the bottom wheel.
\dot{θ}_{2} is the angular velocity of the top wheel.
x is the linear distance.
\dot{θ} is linear velocity of the whole contraption.

Homework Equations


Here are some relationships of these variables according to the free body diagram.
l_{cm}=\frac{m(R+r)}{M+m} is the distance to center of mass from center of the bottom wheel.
\dot{θ}_{1}R=-\dot{θ}_{2}r is just the relationship of the two wheel's angular velocity.
I=\frac{2}{5}MR^{2} is the moment of inertia of the bottom wheel.
I=\frac{1}{4}MR^{2} is the moment of inertia of the top wheel.
\dot{θ}_{1}R=\dot{x} just means that there is no slipping.

I am looking for mechanical Lagrangian equation of L=T-V.
While i know V=mgl_{cm}cosθ_{1}, I am not sure what T would look like, I know it would have to do with at least 2 terms, transitional kinetic energy and rotational energy terms, but I am not sure how the interaction of the two wheels would play out.

The Attempt at a Solution


L=T-mgl_{cm}cosθ_{1}
 
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Can the wheel on the bottom slide? Assuming that the small one sticks to the big one (is this OK?), then just write the x, y position of the big one as a function of theta sub one and distance from origin, and write down the position of the small one relative to the big one. Then just add them to get the position w.r.t to the ground, and use this to write the lagrangian.
 
AuraCrystal said:
Can the wheel on the bottom slide? Assuming that the small one sticks to the big one (is this OK?), then just write the x, y position of the big one as a function of theta sub one and distance from origin, and write down the position of the small one relative to the big one. Then just add them to get the position w.r.t to the ground, and use this to write the lagrangian.

the wheel on the bottom does not slide. the small one is actually a motor that turns the big one. so they are stuck together.

I don't get what you mean "and write down the position of the small one relative to the big one. Then just add them to get the position w.r.t to the ground, and use this to write the lagrangian."
 
Ooh ok, then that makes the math simpler. :-) Forget about what I said.

Set the origin to be the center of the wheel. Using basic trig, find the x,y coordinates of the small wheel in terms of theta 1 and theta 2. (The small one can slide, right?) Then plug it into
T_{small}=\frac{1}{2}I \dot{\theta_{1}}+\frac{1}{2}mv^{2}=\frac{1}{2}I \dot{\theta_{1}}+\frac{1}{2}m \left ( \dot{x^{2}} + \dot{y^{2}} \right )
The kinetic energy for the big wheel is easy. Plug those expressions for x and y for the small wheel into V=mgy, then get the Lagrangian.
 
AuraCrystal said:
Ooh ok, then that makes the math simpler. :-) Forget about what I said.

Set the origin to be the center of the wheel. Using basic trig, find the x,y coordinates of the small wheel in terms of theta 1 and theta 2. (The small one can slide, right?) Then plug it into
T_{small}=\frac{1}{2}I \dot{\theta_{1}}+\frac{1}{2}mv^{2}=\frac{1}{2}I \dot{\theta_{1}}+\frac{1}{2}m \left ( \dot{x^{2}} + \dot{y^{2}} \right )
The kinetic energy for the big wheel is easy. Plug those expressions for x and y for the small wheel into V=mgy, then get the Lagrangian.

the small one would kinda be orbiting around the big one, but ideally it should stay pretty much on top of it. this is kind of like a inverted pendulum problem.
so for the small wheel, the transitional motion would be
\frac{1}{2}m((R+r)\dot{θ}cosθ)^2.

you are missing the square on the \dot{θ} on the rotational term right?
 
^Oops! Yeah, I forgot that...
 

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