Lagrangian equations - ring which is sliding along a wire

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves a ring sliding along a helical wire under the influence of gravity. The helical shape is defined by the equations x = a*cos(kz) and y = a*sin(kz), with the gravitational field acting in the z direction. The objective is to derive the motion equations and determine the wire reaction as a function of time using Lagrangian mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to apply Lagrangian mechanics but expresses uncertainty about their approach and the necessity of the Lagrangian. They seek validation of their initial equations and clarification on the use of Lagrange's equations of the first kind.

Discussion Status

Participants are engaging with the original poster's confusion regarding the application of Lagrangian mechanics. Some have requested clarification on the Lagrangian, generalized coordinates, and the meaning of variables used in the problem. There is an exploration of the constraints involved and how they relate to the equations being formulated.

Contextual Notes

The original poster mentions that their study material is in a different language, which may contribute to their confusion regarding the concepts of Lagrangian mechanics. They also reference specific types of Lagrange's equations they are required to use, indicating potential constraints on their approach.

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Homework Statement


Hello. I have this problem:
I have a ring which is sliding along a wire in the shape of a spiral because of gravity.
Spiral (helix) is given as the intersection of two surfaces: x = a*cos(kz), y = a*sin(kz). The gravity field has the z axis direction.
I have to find motion equations and find the wire reaction as a function of time.

2. Homework Equations

I have to solve it with this equation:
equation.png


The Attempt at a Solution


This is the first time, when I solve a example with Lagrangian equations, so I am not sure what to do.
I created this equations:
solution.jpg


I know, it is not the end. I have to find λ, motion equations and the wire reaction. But firstly, please, tell me, if I am right or where is mistake and why. Then I will continue.

Thank you very much.
 

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Hi,
can you tell me what
your Lagrangian is ?
your generalized coordinates are ?
all variables and given/known data are, i.e. what your relevant equation symbols represent ?
Then we can continue. :wink:
 
Do I really need the Lagrangian? When I read the study text, there was Lagrangian only in Lagrange's equations of the second kind, not in Lagrange's equations of the first kind. And I wrote there Lagrange's equations of the first kind, because in my task was, that I have to use this.

My study text is in different language, but the type of equations is same like this on 3rd page: https://www.physast.uga.edu/ag/uploads/2017%20SPRING%20-%20PHYS8011%20-%20HMWK%2004%20-%20Lagrange%20Eqs%20of%201st%20Kind.pdf

Sorry, I am confused, it is new for me.
 
Well, I'm grateful because I had to find out about these first kind Lagrange equations (look suspiciously like Newton's) . At least that revealed what ##\Phi## stands for: the constraint equations. And they are supposed to come in the form ##\Phi_\alpha = 0##. Can you make that explicit for me, so we can check your ##\partial\Phi_\alpha\over \partial x_j## ?

Furthermore: I see only one ##\lambda##. How many constraints do you have ?

Another tack (problem solving skills): approaching this from the other end: what kind of motion do you expect ? Do your intermediate equations fit that ?
 
Last edited:

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