After reading about someone who has attempted to describe the world without mathematics, and after looking at some of the projects around on the web that are trying to construct "model universes", I have thought about this and about the best way to describe the "data structures" an informatic model might need, and a question I have is: How far is it possible to describe the universe using logical axioms? We know that there are symmetries in the universe and here in our immediate locale. The most obvious is the one Einstein uncovered. Can the equivalence of mass/energy be viewed (and I know this is getting straight into math concepts) as a 2-d plane, where either side is "visible" to the universe, like a reflection that can only be viewed "one of two" ways? So there is no "degree-of-freedom" for mass-energy to "become" or reflect any other "image" at the universe (the mirror has no thickness)? Could this kind of axiom be extended to other symmetries? Or has it been tried and abandoned because a reference (for us humans) is always needed, rather than an indefinite number of points on some plane? Sorry if this doesn't make much sense, but I've been trying to think about the universe and what it was (like) before observers came along. Also about how matter "communicates" -via photons, and charge and gravity, and of course superposition. If you consider a universe that is something like ours was meant to be, say, after inflation but before the condensation, sometime during the first 0.3b yrs, so no atomic hydrogen or deuterons, just lots of vibrating matter and energy, along with the other "interactions": How could this be treated (successfully or otherwise) as a "network" or connected graph of some kind, where connections are the interactions? Or does this all sound completely impractical and obviously some mathematical model is where to start first?