Lorentz Boosts: Finding Speed, Coordinates & Rotation w/ Matrix Multiply

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of Lorentz boosts, particularly focusing on the relationship between two perpendicular Lorentz boosts and their equivalence to a rotation after a boost. Participants explore the mathematical representation of these transformations through matrix multiplication, seeking clarity on the underlying mechanics and implications of the results.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a matrix multiplication example illustrating how two perpendicular Lorentz boosts can result in a rotation, referencing an expert's explanation of the underlying mechanics.
  • Another participant questions how the expert determined the specific boosts in the x and y directions, suggesting a need for clarity on the values used in the matrix.
  • Further inquiries are made regarding the calculation of the magnitude, direction, and rotation about the z-axis resulting from the matrix multiplication.
  • Participants discuss the structure of Lorentz transformation matrices, noting that diagonal elements represent the Lorentz factor (##\gamma##) and off-diagonal elements represent the velocity terms.
  • One participant suggests that understanding the properties of matrices describing pure rotations and boosts can aid in factoring the product of two boost matrices into a rotation matrix and a boost matrix.
  • Another participant expresses gratitude for the insights provided and indicates a willingness to engage with proposed exercises to deepen understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the calculations and implications of Lorentz boosts, with some seeking clarification while others provide insights. The discussion remains unresolved on certain technical aspects, particularly regarding the specific values and transformations involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the relative velocity between frames can complicate the alignment of coordinate systems, particularly when the motion is not aligned with the axes. There is also mention of the need to consider the properties of matrix elements in relation to boosts and rotations.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying special relativity, particularly in understanding Lorentz transformations, matrix representations of boosts, and the mathematical relationships between different reference frames.

Athenian
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TL;DR
QUESTION:
How can one tell (or figure out) the boost speed(s), direction coordinates, and rotation through matrix multiplication?
Recently, I've been studying about Lorentz boosts and found out that two perpendicular Lorentz boosts equal to a rotation after a boost. Below is an example matrix multiplication of this happening:

$$
\left(
\begin{array}{cccc}
\frac{2}{\sqrt{3}} & 0 & -\frac{1}{\sqrt{3}} & 0 \\
0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\
-\frac{1}{\sqrt{3}} & 0 & \frac{2}{\sqrt{3}} & 0 \\
0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\
\end{array}
\right)
\left(
\begin{array}{cccc}
\frac{2}{\sqrt{3}} & -\frac{1}{\sqrt{3}} & 0 & 0 \\
-\frac{1}{\sqrt{3}} & \frac{2}{\sqrt{3}} & 0 & 0 \\
0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\
0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\
\end{array}
\right)
=
\left(
\begin{array}{cccc}
1 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\
0 & \frac{4 \sqrt{3}}{7} & -\frac{1}{7} & 0 \\
0 & \frac{1}{7} & \frac{4 \sqrt{3}}{7} & 0 \\
0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\
\end{array}
\right)
\left(
\begin{array}{cccc}
\frac{4}{3} & -\frac{2}{3} & -\frac{1}{\sqrt{3}} & 0 \\
-\frac{2}{3} & \frac{25}{21} & \frac{2}{7 \sqrt{3}} & 0 \\
-\frac{1}{\sqrt{3}} & \frac{2}{7 \sqrt{3}} & \frac{8}{7} & 0 \\
0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\
\end{array}
\right)
$$

Source: https://physics.stackexchange.com/q...ing-to-a-rotation-after-a-boost/515690#515690

According to the expert (on the website above) providing the example matrix multiplication, he stated that, "the left-hand-side represents a boost by ##c/2## along the ##x##-direction followed by a boost by ##c/2## along the ##y##-direction, and that the right-hand-side represents a boost by ##\sqrt{7}c/4## in the direction ##(2/\sqrt{7},\sqrt{3/7},0)## followed by rotation around the ##z##-axis by ##\cos^{-1}(4\sqrt{3}/7)## or ##8.21## degrees".

However, my question is how was he able to know the boosts for the ##x## and the ##y## directions are both ##c/2##? Furthermore, how was he able to know what are the magnitude, direction, and rotation about the ##z##-axis of the matrices after the matrix multiplication? For some reason, I am having a hard time figuring out how he was able to find these numerical values.

Finally, a last yet not-so-bright question, how was the author able to get the answer yet split the matrix in two in that specific manner provided in the example above? Does this help with the solution process?

Any help to provide any amount of insight to answering my question will be much appreciated. Thank you very much for your time and assistance!
 
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Let me approach this issue in a different way. First, let's assume that reference frame S' is moving at some velocity ##\vec v ## in the x-y plane, relative to frame S.

Now, the time on a clock in S' (relative to a clock in S) is determined by this. But, an observer in frame S' could set up their x'-y'-z' axes in any way they like. There is nothing that compels them to do it any particular way.

Let's suppose, however, that this observer wants to align their x'-y' axes in some way with the x-y axes in frame S.

(Note that if the relative motion is along the x-axis, then the x-y axes in S are orthogonal in S' when the origins coincide. So, S' can choose these direction for the x'-y' axis. And, of course, this is what the Lorentz boost assumes.)

However, if the relative velocity is not along either the x or y-axis, then when the origins coincide the x-y axes are not orthogonal in S'. Exercise: check this out. So, there is no immediate way for S' to align its axes with those in S.

Then S' has an idea! If the velocity of S' relative to S is ##\vec v##, then why not choose the x'-y' axes so that the velocity of S in S' is ##-\vec v##? That creates a symmetry between the frames.

This convention is used to define the x'-y'-z' coordinate system in S' when dealing with boosts along an arbitrary direction. All the formulas for a general boost assume this convention. This uniquely defines an x'-y'-z' coordinate system for S'.

Now, suppose instead we simply apply a boost in the x-direction of ##v_x##, to define an intermediate frame, T say. Then define another boost in T of ##v_y##. This defines a reference frame, T', which is similar to S', except we are not sure that the choice of x'-y'z' axes that arises from this matches the ones we choose above. And, in fact, a closer look reveals that, in fact, the velocity of S in frame T' is not ##-\vec v##.

So, what coordinates have arisen for the frame T' from this process? The answer is that the coordinates in T' are rotated compared to the coordinates in S'. By doing two boosts we lost the symmetry in the relative velocity between the frames. And, it's not too hard to calculate the rotation between these coordinate systems.

Note that the relative speed between S and T' is, correctly, ##|\vec v|##, so the time coordinate is correct.

Once you have all that it is not too hard to find the coordinates for frames S' and T' and to define the rotation needed to go from one to the other.
 
Last edited:
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I see @PeroK covered the right hand side. The left hand side is simply two Lorentz transforms in matrix form. The diagonal elements are ##\gamma## and the off diagonals are ##-v\gamma##.
 
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Athenian said:
how was he able to know the boosts for the ##x## and the ##y## directions are both ##c/2##?

Try calculating ##\gamma = 1 / \sqrt{1 - v^2}## and ##\gamma v## for ##v = 1/2##. Then think about what the matrix elements of a matrix that describes a pure boost look like in terms of ##\gamma## and ##\gamma v##.

Athenian said:
how was he able to know what are the magnitude, direction, and rotation about the ##z##-axis of the matrices after the matrix multiplication?

Think about what the ##tt## and ##zz## matrix elements need to be for a matrix that describes no boost and a rotation about the ##z## axis.

Athenian said:
how was the author able to get the answer yet split the matrix in two in that specific manner provided in the example above?

By understanding particular facts about matrices that describe pure rotations and pure boosts, and using them to factor the product of the two boost matrices into a pure rotation matrix and a pure boost matrix.

Athenian said:
Does this help with the solution process?

Most definitely.
 
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Thank you @PeterDonis, @Ibix, and @PeroK for all your kind assistance and explanations! I sincerely appreciate the help and I now have a much better understanding with regards to my original question.

PeroK said:
However, if the relative velocity is not along either the x or y-axis, then when the origins coincide the x-y axes are not orthogonal in S'. Exercise: check this out. So, there is no immediate way for S' to align its axes with those in S.
PeterDonis said:
Think about what the ##tt## and ##zz## matrix elements need to be for a matrix that describes no boost and a rotation about the ##z## axis.

And yes, I will be sure to do the proposed exercise to reinforce the validity of your statement, PeroK. In addition, I'll be sure to think about "what the ##tt## and ##zz## matrix elements need to be for a matrix that describes no boost and a rotation about the ##z## axis".

Of course, if I have any questions, I'll be sure to update this thread afterward. In the meantime, thank you all for your kind and helpful responses!
 
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