Magnetic Field Trouble in Los Angeles: Equipment Failures

[Darryl]

burial ground sounds about right.

but i wouls say NO, I've never seen or heard of a breaker tripping by an external magnetic field, whether its inside or outside a metal box.

it might be possible, but i think the magnetic fields from a breaker right next to it would create just as strong an external field.

i think it IS possible the a Electromagnetic field could make high currents flow in a curcuit, and then the breaker trips from overcurrent, its normal mode of tripping.

 

[Adder_Noir]

We showed him pictures of the breakers on several panels that randomly tripped and switched to off position at 2:45 A.M. last saturday, which was our latest big event.

To be honest before you go getting anyone else involved I'd just get a plain old spark (electrician) to come and test out your installation for faulty wiring.

I'll give you an example of just how serious a problem it can cause when something goes wrong with wiring. It concerns the outside lights on our house.

A few years ago we had an extension built by someone we know well. The building work was top notch but the sparks were as bad as anything you can imagine. Recently I pulled out all their garbage and it took me three days to figure out how they'd wired a small four light circuit which was sensor activated and also manually controlled by a switch. This is our home I'm talking about, not a huge industrial premises and the circuit is still a relatively simple one on paper too.

Anyway I removed all their wiring except the parts than ran behind plastered walls which were unreachable. I wired the outside lights off the supply they'd brought in from the board. It ran off the breaker which had 'lights' printed above it in red letters as opposed to the other one which had green letters above it.

Before too long after finishing the install the breaker starts going. This went on for several days. Then I discovered that the 6A red lettered breaker was controlling all the downstairs lights on the house, outside ones included. Its load was now well over 6A and closer to about 8A because the new outside lights are 300W each but also have the utility lights on them which makes for a total current draw of 6A off them alone.

So I thought, the breaker is going. But it's going intermittently? Ah!, thinks me, I know the reason - when not under fault current conditions most breakers and fuses will go a long time on overcurrent before they'll trip. A 6A breaker carrying 8A won't trip straight away. It will take a while.

So I kill off the original supply for the outside lights and run them off a fused radial circuit from the garage socket ring. It's on a 16A breaker with 2.5mm cable. No problem. Or is it?

Next thing I know I'm sitting on my dad's computer just like I am now and it goes:

*POOOOFFF*

Hmm...Clearly still not resolved. But now it's not throwing the red lettered light breaker, it's knocking out EVERYTHING in the house! But with the exception of the upstairs and downstairs lights?

Reason was...given that it was running off the garage socket ring it was now being protected by the RCD or GFI as in the UK it's common practice to have all your socket outlets extra protected by an RCD (or GFI in USA terms) which prevents Earth faults. So at least I now know it's an Earth fault that's doing it. I scratch my head and bingo! A quick look outside reveals the problem.

One of the original power legs coming out above the utility room window which I'd terminated in the box was still connected to a small stub on the other side of the box which was exposed to the rain. And that's what was causing it all.

Are you beginning to see just how big a problem you might have if your building has been wired badly and electronic devices which can turn themselves on are requesting current every now and then? I agree it may not be the entire problem. In fact even if it isn't the problem at all, then you must get it ruled out before you can continue any further or you'll go crazy (trust me).

LOL if you'd pay for the flight and a suitable test meter I'll come over and have a look myself

 

[business man]

I would seriously consider it if you really think you can solve my problem.
I'll try anything! It is just a matter of prioritizing. I really must get a new FUSED circuit run directly to my phone/computer room without going anywhere near the wall that has panel problems with a emergency generator, good switcher amd conditioner'ups. That alone will be very time consuming and costly, but would be an asset to the company even if we find the real problem later. I would include a few critical circuits for basic lighting and a couple of work stations.
how much is a flight to LAX?

 

[Adder_Noir]

It would be a fantastic adventure and a wonderful experience, but to be honest I'd be costing you money you don't have to spend as you can get all that stuff done by local electricians without having to pay for a flight or arrange accomodation. Plus obviously it would be a diabolical disappointment to you for me to travel that distance and find out it's something I couldn't anticipate and can't help you with directly!

If you really can't get a local electrician to do the work for you then drop me a pm or a reply in this thread and we'll discuss it further. If it gets to that stage I could do with some photographs of your incoming supply and where you want the cables routing to so I could plan it out in advance.

Then of course there's the problem of me not being able to bring tools on the plane, so you'd have to provide them when I got there, but it wouldn't need anything spectacular to route a fused supply to a few stations and a light circuit. You'd have to accept the odd floorboard might need to come up though

 

[NoTime]

Today we had a local university proffesor at the building and he was very perplexed and interested to say the least.
We showed him pictures of the breakers on several panels that randomly tripped and switched to off position at 2:45 A.M. last saturday, which was our latest big event. He thinks it is a field problem but has never seen or heard of anything like it.

Curious.
I would think that an EMP would generate opposing currents in a standard cable pair that would cancel out.
Unless there was enough to cause an arc over, in which case the AC power could follow the arc and pop a breaker.
If you were getting that kind of field stength in an event I would think it would tend to destroy cell phones, Ipods and other portable equipment.

Has anyone tried to check for DC currents on your ground point cable or the neutral to the substation?

 

[Danger]

Business man, these guys are so far over my head that I have absolutely nothing left to contribute. Suffice it to say that I'll continue to monitor this thread, and you have my sincerest hope that your problem is resolved in a timely manner.

 

[berkeman]

Hey business man, since this is such a long thread (but still on-topic), could you please summarize in 10 or so bullets what you have found so far? I've seen some of the highlights (like tripping breakers under some circumstances), but it helps in these debug scenarios if there can be a mid-term summary of the key points to help re-focus the debug. Like, where did grounding make a difference, and where did using a generator make a difference, and what systems are still affected and how often and how, etc.

Can you please summarize were everything is at the moment? Thanks.

 

[business man]

I will try to get my expert to summarize because the stuff he is monitoring is beyond my comprehension and memory.

My attempt at a summary would be the following:
My company is in an 80,000sf section of a 125,000sf bldg, which is a modern, 5 year old, concrete steel reinforced, tilt up style with steel truss/ plywood roof. We are within 75-100ft of a DC transmission line that serves 45% of Los Angeles and within 150ft of an A.C. transmission line.

We have had increasing problems starting from when we moved into the building 1year ago. Previous tenant says he never had problems.
It started, from what I recently heard, from my computer tech saying the hard drive in her office lost memory. She returned it for a new one. This happened four times before she figured out that she couldn’t have a computer in that office. She found out later that the hard drive still had all of her data but only the something, something was erased.

Fast forward to ever increasing phone calls dropping, hard drive crashes in the server room, then finally lights turning off and on, off and on quickly, to the most bizarre finale of circuit breakers not only tripping but actually going to off position with little or no load literally before our eyes and in front of several DWP personnel.

We have had a nationally renowned expert in electrical trouble shooting, working on trying to monitor and pinpoint the problem or problems, but so far has been unsuccessful and does not seem to have any solid clue as to what the cause might be. Not only that but he has never seen or heard of, nor any of his colleagues seen or heard of anything like this.

The DC line has been ramping up over the last several months but we cannot get them to admit that there is consistent correlation between our events and any trouble on their line.
We think the AC line is probably far enough away and most likely not the cause because there are more defined regulations and more history of problems or lack thereof for
AC lines.

We have measured and recorded lots of unusual stuff happening in different parts of the building but I am not able to get that data to you. We have not been able to measure and record the magnetic fields during an event for several reasons like equipment dropping out during event or software not being able to record more than 20 min. at a time etc. Hopefully we can get a recording soon during an event.

We have been limping along with a diesel generator going through an online UPS and line conditioner, bypassing breakers and using only fused disconnect for our phones and computers. Our T1 line is not stable and some of our phone equipment is still failing a couple times a day. We did clean up all of our ground faults, there were about three that totaled maybe 4 or 5 amps to ground and or neutral, now zero.

We had an event at about 6:30 A.M. today that took out several random breakers, never anything bigger than 20amp so far. There were no breaker events the rest of the day but the network went down 2 times along with the phones.

The last few days have been relatively quite compared to about a week ago when we were getting blasted most of the day with lighting off/on, breakers tripping, and phones going down all day, but these lulls have happened before so we need to be prepared for the next round.

I know I am missing a lot and you really need to read the whole progression to get all of the details but maybe this will help.
Adder, have I missed anything critical here? BTW thanks for your help and I hope I can find someone local who is as helpful and caring as you. If you ever do come to the states you better look me up so I can buy you a big steak dinner.

 

[Adder_Noir]

Adder, have I missed anything critical here?

I don't think so mate. Might be worth mentioning your problems got worse when grounding improved.

One thing though, you say nothing over 20Amps has been affected. Does this mean the issue is confined to a set number of breakers consistently?

I need you to get two pieces of very important information for me. They are as follows:

1)Did you say you were still getting problems on the fused circuits which are on the stand alone generator run circuit?

2)Is your building's wiring now up to scratch?

I have had another idea and it is related to your proximity to the power lines and it raises another question:

3)How old are the circuit breakers you currently have installed, and where are they in the building in relation to the points of greatest magnetic disturbance/DC line proximity.

I can't remember exactly how they work but if they're using an electronic amplifier along the same lines as an RCD/GFI does then I suppose it is possible that they have become over-sensitised and are reacting in unusual ways. You need to get this checked out. Is it only confined to breakers rated less than 20Amps?

Hopefully we'll get that Steak dinner

 

[Danger]

Okay, I lied; I have one more idea. The reason that no one else has mentioned it is probably because it's absolutely irrelevant and I don't know what I'm talking about, but here goes anyhow...
This is the first time that you mentioned an AC line being in the same vicinity. Have you tried to correlate the activities of both the DC and AC lines? It just occurred to me that there might be an interaction between them, with you caught in the middle...

 

[business man]

I don't think so mate. Might be worth mentioning your problems got worse when grounding improved.

That was when we had a few ground loops that have now been corrected.

One thing though, you say nothing over 20Amps has been affected. Does this mean the issue is confined to a set number of breakers consistently?

No there is no pattern to small breakers tripping. We believe large breakers don't trip because they have stonger springs.

I need you to get two pieces of very important information for me. They are as follows:

1)Did you say you were still getting problems on the fused circuits which are on the stand alone generator run circuit?

No problems at all on fused circuits as long as there is no breaker in the circuit.

2)Is your building's wiring now up to scratch?

Yes! I double checked myself.

I have had another idea and it is related to your proximity to the power lines and it raises another question:

3)How old are the circuit breakers you currently have installed, and where are they in the building in relation to the points of greatest magnetic disturbance/DC line proximity.

The breakers are less than 5 yrs old. The proximity seems to be a possible problem. The 5 or so panels 480v, 120v, 277v, and transformer are all bolted to a steel reinforced concrete wall about 2/3 away from outside wall closest to DC line and about 1/4 the distance from street wall or front of the building nearest the offices.

I can't remember exactly how they work but if they're using an electronic amplifier along the same lines as an RCD/GFI does then I suppose it is possible that they have become over-sensitised and are reacting in unusual ways. You need to get this checked out. Is it only confined to breakers rated less than 20Amps?

Yes, but we did see evidence of the main digital breaker at the service panel in the back start to trip but never actually did. We replaced it with a dumber breaker and it has not been a problem since.
Also no vertically oriented breaker has tripped maybe because those are all heavier sprung.

Hopefully we'll get that Steak dinner

oh yea

With regard to proximity of issues, There are 2 single story concrete shear walls embeded within the office. BTW shear walls should be footings to truss roof to be effective.
We seem to have the highest field readings above those walls at the second story level. This would be the old server room/current phone room and the other one being where my computer tech said she could not keep her hard drive from crashing so she moved all computer work out of that location many months ago, see my last post.

 

[Adder_Noir]

Fast forward to ever increasing phone calls dropping, hard drive crashes in the server room, then finally lights turning off and on, off and on quickly, to the most bizarre finale of circuit breakers not only tripping but actually going to off position with little or no load literally before our eyes and in front of several DWP personnel.

Just curious but when you say no load does that mean no assumed load i.e. with all appliances turned off or are they actually tripping when no current is measured flowing through them?

I hope it's not the first signs of the Earth's magnetic field reversing Apparently it happens every x no. of thousand years and we'll be utterly screwed when it does it again!

Hmm... another thought enters the mind. It appears it's a quite a good one too. It's almost as good as Danger's suggestion about being between two magnetic fields (which I'd suggest to the power company), so here goes:

I wonder if it might be possible that part of your building is not connected to earth. This is entirely possible if the installation electrician was not too clued up and what should go where to put it as politely as possible, especially given that you've had to fix several ground faults of his.

So is it possible that two large parts of your building which are made of metal and say running parallel to each other are being charged up by the nearby power lines. Over time they will act like a large capacitor if they are both isolated from each other and ground.

Perhaps your events are being caused by things occasionally making contact with them and causing them to discharge like perhaps your 'glowing wire' palletiser for example.

It would explain large stationary magnetic fields in your premises which have been wiping data on hard drives. It would also explain large discarges through your earthing.

It would also explain why your phones don't work, and why sometimes the current being discharged is huge like in the 'glowing wire' palletiser example.

Might even explain why your breakers are tripping with no load. Depends how big the static field is.

I'd get your voltmeter out and test your building's metal structure's voltage relative to ground. In fact try and find a piece that is isolated from ground, then have it's voltage with respect to ground montiored constantly for a few weeks and see how it changes when 'events' occur.

Have a look for walls or roof panels which are large and are situated opposite each other. It's a suggestion which comes mighty close to an explanation of everything that's been going on. Also explains why they don't happen all the time and why some are worse than others, it all depending upon how long they are being charged up by the power lines before something links them together and they discharge.

 

[Adder_Noir]

With regard to proximity of issues, There are 2 single story concrete shear walls embeded within the office. BTW shear walls should be footings to truss roof to be effective.
We seem to have the highest field readings above those walls at the second story level..

Wouldn't by any chance change from a concrete to a metallic wall there would it?

 

[business man]

Wouldn't by any chance change from a concrete to a metallic wall there would it?

They have rebar in them.

 

[business man]

Just curious but when you say no load does that mean no assumed load i.e. with all appliances turned off or are they actually tripping when no current is measured flowing through them?

I hope it's not the first signs of the Earth's magnetic field reversing Apparently it happens every x no. of thousand years and we'll be utterly screwed when it does it again!

Hmm... another thought enters the mind. It appears it's a quite a good one too. It's almost as good as Danger's suggestion about being between two magnetic fields (which I'd suggest to the power company), so here goes:

I wonder if it might be possible that part of your building is not connected to earth. This is entirely possible if the installation electrician was not too clued up and what should go where to put it as politely as possible, especially given that you've had to fix several ground faults of his.

So is it possible that two large parts of your building which are made of metal and say running parallel to each other are being charged up by the nearby power lines. Over time they will act like a large capacitor if they are both isolated from each other and ground.

Perhaps your events are being caused by things occasionally making contact with them and causing them to discharge like perhaps your 'glowing wire' palletiser for example.

It would explain large stationary magnetic fields in your premises which have been wiping data on hard drives. It would also explain large discarges through your earthing.

It would also explain why your phones don't work, and why sometimes the current being discharged is huge like in the 'glowing wire' palletiser example.

Might even explain why your breakers are tripping with no load. Depends how big the static field is.

I'd get your voltmeter out and test your building's metal structure's voltage relative to ground. In fact try and find a piece that is isolated from ground, then have it's voltage with respect to ground montiored constantly for a few weeks and see how it changes when 'events' occur.

Have a look for walls or roof panels which are large and are situated opposite each other. It's a suggestion which comes mighty close to an explanation of everything that's been going on. Also explains why they don't happen all the time and why some are worse than others, it all depending upon how long they are being charged up by the power lines before something links them together and they discharge.

We have so many meters in the building that it's probably been done, going to be done , or not enough meters to do everything, but i will try to push this one too.

 

[business man]

It's a perceived little or no load. what I mean is that there were normal or no loads perceived but there could have been some unkown mysterious load or spike that has yet to be measured during an event.

 

[Adder_Noir]

We have so many meters in the building that it's probably been done, going to be done , or not enough meters to do everything, but i will try to push this one too.

It'll be dead easy to do, you just need a beep test to check for continuity of your metal structures to ground and to each other. Your looking for an isolated one.

Hmm..perceived load, so the actual trip current hasn't been measured yet. Not sure if you're aware mate but to trip even a 6A breaker instantly you need a fault current of 1000's of amps which is basically a dead short. If you've had all these guys in testing then I doubt the breakers are being steadily overloaded or they'd have picked that up. I also suspect you're not getting fault current through them as they'd be showing a lot of high current wear by now such as having black scorch marks on their terminals. I suspect something is activating them directly through their mechanism rather than through the circuit they're protecting, which again brings us back to the probability that it's a standing or fluctuating magnetic field causing all your grief.

I have to say though mate I really don't think a stationary magnetic field would be enough on its own to make your palletiser wire glow or your lights dim. That suggests to me the energy from the magnetic field is being stored up by something and discharging occasionally which is what led me to the capacitor idea.

Out of curiosity what was the last occupier of the premises nature of business? Did he have phones and sensitive equipment in there?

Forgive me for asking something you might already have answered, but are your breakers and distribution board in a panel?

 

[business man]

Yes, enclosed and locked in steel panels over night but doors usually open during the day. this doesn't make any difference. As i said before the breaker panels should act as pretty good faraday cages.

The comments seem logical re breakers. So far no signs of wearing out.

The last guy in there had similar phones and computers and said he had no problems.

 

[business man]

The lights never dim, they go off and on rather quickly cycling maybe every second or two, and sometimes does not result in a tripped breaker.

I would not put too much emphasis on the glowing wires, since this might be an exageration. The wires do make some pretty loud crackling noises occasionally but usually a soft crackling.

 

[Danger]

Nothing more from me personally here, but I ran into a buddy, who is an excellent electrician, at my pool match tonight. Luckily, I wasn't playing against him, because he's one of the best shooters in the province. Anyhow, I mentioned that there was a mystery afoot, and gave him directions to this thread. He will be looking into it. If he registers in order to post, I have no idea what his username will be.

 

[Adder_Noir]

That's what I was thinking. If they're in panels then they should be well protected. Curious that the lights only go off for a second and then come back on without ever dimming.

Do you have a single phase supply coming in or three phase?

I think by now you can rule out a faulty appliance at your premises and also a wiring fault. This is definitely something external which is causing it.

It looks like some kind of large power drop and then a large power surge. To be honest mate I'd guess something like that would be traceable to the power company which puts the solution out of your hands, and into the hands of a large group of people whose policy will probably be to withhold information from you.

Given that all the other avenues have been exhausted I'd guess it must be something to do with the quality/consistency of power entering your property. This ties in with you having no problems with the generator run circuits.

That is the direction I'd focus on now. You have to try and think of everything first though very thoroughly before you start looking that way just in case.

There would be things you can do to keep the power coming in clean, but it would mean spending money on a new custom made panel I think.

Unless any new information comes to light mate I'm afraid I'm all burned out of ideas! I hope you get it sorted out soon. Just remember that if you've got no issue at your place and the last guy had no problems then I would guess its a power supply problem on the part of the power company. Looks to me like someone or something, somewhere is getting the lion's share of your buildings power for its own use when it needs it and you're getting the ****ty end of the stick.

Best of luck mate, sorry we couldn't help

 

[business man]

I will keep writing updates if any new info comes up.
Thanks again for all of your help.
Maybe Dangers buddy has seen this problem before? He's going to need at least an hour to read all the replies:zzz:

 

[Darryl]

just got my copy of "Silicon Chip magazine.

Product Showcase section has an artical of a new Power quality tester.
By Fluke:

"the logger will troubleshoot and analyse power quality issues and is capable of logging up to 500 power parameters for up to 85 days.
It is ideal for identifying intermittent and hard to find power quality issues, quality of service compliance, assessing baseline power qualithy, load studies and energy and power quality performance validation.
The recorder provides advanced power quality analysis and consistent compliance testing.. " it goes on...

www.fluke.com.au

www.siliconchip.com.au

mabey its possible to hire such test equipment.

 

[business man]

my guy has had something that looks like this hooked up for awhile, I will see if it is the same thing.
thanks for your input.

 

[Electro-Man12]

Businessman,

Your problems are not with electromagnetic fields. Hire a REAL electrician, Any electrician and technician you have had in there before, I would never let in again. They aren't worth a darn if you ask me.

No wonder you have been pulling your hair out. Ignorant know nothing people who do electrical work, who aren't real electricians keep telling people like you they are electricians. Just because someone can hook up 2 wires and make the light come on in no way qualifies them as an electrician.

I am a REAL electrician and I have run into this problem more than once. I found the problem each and every time. And it is ALWAYS the same problem. I bet you would like to know what the problem is.

If I was in Los Angeles I would tell you to call me and I would come fix your problem. For fee of course. However I live in Dallas Tx, so I won't be stopping by anytime soon.

You have discovered your own problem but then never followed through with it. You said the conduit was carrying current. ""BIG RED FLAG"" Conduit should never carry current EVER!

Let me tell you about a story of one instance which electrified an entire house including the brick outside. The problem was with a light in a bedroom of a house. the ground wire was laying on the side of the switch, and whenever that particular bedroom light was on, the ground wire became electrified. BUT the interesting part is the breaker did not blow.
If you turned the bedroom light on and went outside and touched the brick on the house, it would shock you. The short was not a direct short, but was actually creating a spark gap at the bedroom switch. The people had called 20 plus ""electricians"" before me who could not fix it. I fixed in within 15 minutes.

Another story was a business in a concrete building, with rebar in walls just like yours.
Their computers kept blowing out, and they couldn't figure out why. The power company came in and checked the line, they were good. They hired someone else to come in and check the line voltage, and record it, they were fine no surges all night. BUT the computers blew out again.

None of these people would monitor the ground. Which is what I suggested within 5 minutes of arriving and hearing their story. As soon as they started monitoring the ground they discovered a spike. The spike was occurring when another piece of equipment would turn on, I believe it was a roof A/C this time. When the a/c would kick on, it created a short, but again NOT A DIRECT short. It too was a spark gap short that would not blow the breaker but electrified the ground in the entire building. effectively doubling the voltage on the computers.

Everyone kept looking for surges in the line, when in fact they were coming from the ground system.

Call a REAL electrician.

Have a great day.

 

[Electro-Man12]

Businessman,

If the conduit is carrying current ALL the time, and not just when the anomalies are happening, then in fact you have a neutral wire disconnected or broke somewhere, which is causing the conduit to carry current all the time. Which is your problem. I would start looking at the equipment that the conduit you tested was running first, and go from there.

If the conduit is carrying current only during the anomalies, then whatever piece of equipment is on during the anomalies is the problem. Roof A/c, refrigerator, heater, water fountain chiller.

I would look for something turning on, or off at the same times these anomalies happen. A low crackling sound, sounds like a spark gap to me. I would try to pin point it. If your grounding system is carrying current and you ground your equipment better, expect MORE failures.

Well Have fun.

Call a REAL Electrician.

One more thing, as the short starts occurring it will draw the power from the equipment that is on, lights or whatever, and sometimes those will go off as long as the spark gap is occurring. Then they will come back on, as the spark gap stops, and go back off as the spark starts again. And all of this can happen without blowing the breakers.