Magnetic Field Trouble in Los Angeles: Equipment Failures

[Adder_Noir]

I work for a company that manufactures, installs and maintains electron microscopes. In order to determine if there is a lot of vibration or EMI we contract out to other companies. If this problem persists, there is a company called TCM that specializes in detection and cancellation of vibration and electromagnetic field. http://www.techmfg.com/index.htm?gclid=CNq8s8TAuIgCFTosGAodOlG4zA

Also you might want to take down this guy's suggestion in case you need these folks. They might be able to help you with other stuff even if a magnetic field is not the issue.

 

[business man]

Ok, I am going over there in about an hour to make sure that all of the most logical suggestions here are contemplated or implimented.

Logically the first thing would be when they shut my power down at noon, we will use that time to check for current all over the building.

I did forget to mention one other thing but it may not be pertinent. I was told that in one of our servers with four or five drives, that one of the power suplies was arcing and had to be shut down.
Soon after that two or three hard drives failed so we are down to two drives now and they are limping along doing all the work but seem to be holding up.

The reason I bring it up now is because there has been discusion here about drives creating high frequency problems. The reason I did not bring it up earlier is because I think they have been shut down, and, or disconnected for a period of time and we were still having problems.

I must verify this today to see if the problems stop when circuits to the servers are swithched off.

 

[business man]

I just verified that the drive problem was suspect weeks ago. They completely isolated the server (disconnected) and we still experienced problems, so scratch that one off the list.

 

[Adder_Noir]

Will do. Don't forget to report back your findings on Earth conductor current under isolation

 

[Adder_Noir]

Just in case you need it here is my old employer's website.

John Merriman the guy who runs it is an uber expert on electrics. He is very busy though and you'd have to at least offer to re-imburse him if you were going to take up a lot of his time because he runs the company and it is very hectic, although I'm sure he'd be very glad to help.

http://www.jmsweb.co.uk"

His UK number is 0151 647 5092. I'm not sure how to ring it from outside the UK though, although I'm told it's very easy.

He might be the kind of guy who can point you straight to the problem.

 

[business man]

What a day! Just got home. I am totally spent and overloaded with info.I will never be able to remember everything we did today. I met Tom today for the first time and all I can say is WOW is this guy sharp. He had so much cool eqiupment out there, I couldn't believe it!

I will keep it brief because more info will come to me later. Just want to hit the major points.

This is 99% most likely a EMF problem, and it may be one of the only combination of circumstances that exists in this country from what i am gathering.

The power line passing my building is D.C.! It was determined years ago that this is a more efficient way to get power transferred long distances, and was apparently government sponsored, but obviously not researched quite enough regarding easement and right of way guidlines and restrictions which are fairly well established for A.C.

I should say before I go too far, that when we shut down power to change out that main breaker, we saw a reading of around 280 mamps before and maybe around 260 after. This was checked in several places on both ends of the building and pretty consistent.

We checked several water lines outside, rebar below grade and in the wall.
DWP said he was ready to rule out that the problem was coming from ground but said he would leave a recording meter for 24 hrs.

We had several events today, breakers were tripping with normal loads, some while the guy was there, so he is actually saying that it could be EMFs from the D.C, line!

The best evidence came at 3:02 pm when just after an event, my computer guy runs back to the panel where we were all standing and says,"your not going to believe what i just saw"

One of our pallet wrappers was out in back and heard unusual crackling in the wires then a loud bang, and said a wire or wires were glowing!
So chris runs out to see the very end of the glowing wires before they went back to normal color.

more in a minute:

 

[Danger]

DC on a major line?! WTF?!

 

[business man]

Tom, who you should know by now, was already thinking that the two lines running next to each other, should be fine no matter how much current was passing through them as long as they are balanced. His most recent theory is that when they are, for some reason out of balance, is when it causes our EMF problem.

The guy who manages this line has now been informed of the situation, and we took reports from three employees that saw or heard the wires at 3:02 along with our statements about the concurrent failure of magnetic breakers. He will also receive the report from the other DWP guy that will substantiate our claims of random failures that do not appear to be from ground or faulty wiring\appliances.

After this 3:02 event, I decided to take action. I had a bigger generator ordered, got it hooked up to our big UPS with line conditioner. Had the magnetic breaker bypassed, (still has fuse protection) so i wouldn't have to cage it. I had this hooked up to our phone system and computers with separate grounding using special receptacles that will not ground to the boxes but use ground wires inside conduit. I then had the computer cabinets grounded to the conduits.

In the phone room I went the extra mile, not only completing above tasks but also rigged a faraday cage from expanded metal lathe and twist ties that I grounded to conduit. I not only caged the equipment but also most of the hundreds of cables running in and out of the room, then grounded the metal wire rack that is sort of like a sideways ladder in a T shape that seemed like it needed to be grounded.

The only weekness here is that I could not complete the cage against the wall that the equipment is mounted to. That wall is away from the EMF source, or the far side, so I am hoping this does not compromise the cage's effectiveness too much.

The bottom line here is that I can run my business without lights and outlets for awhile, but not without phones and computers! So right now that's the priority.

When I left tonight they were just buttoning up the final connections. I am crossing my fingers. The last couple hits just before I left did not shut down the phones, which is a good sign, although the phones didn't always go down on every hit, I was encouraged and proud of my work.

We are crossing our fingers and toes.

There is a lot more to say about some of the readings from the awesome equipment Tom brought over, but I'm beat, I've got to be somewhere early A.M., will try to check in here sometime tomorrow.

 

[Adder_Noir]

Tom, who you should know by now, was already thinking that the two lines running next to each other, should be fine no matter how much current was passing through them as long as they are balanced. His most recent theory is that when they are, for some reason out of balance, is when it causes our EMF problem.

Wow no wonder you've had problems this really is a rare one. If I remember correctly then current running in one direction cancels out the magnetic field from current running in the opposite direction. That's why you have to use three core (actually four-cored) cable for two way lighting circuits so you never have a phase wire running departed from the neutral as it causes magnetic disturbance which can affect hearing aids.

If the operation relies on several lines running next to each other in opposite directions (or the same direction - I really can't remember which at the moment) to cancel out each others magnetic field then yes an imbalance woould cause a resultant magnetic field to be in effect.

Because it's D.C. the field would be stationary and would not fluctuate until something caused further imbalance in the line (someone turning on a big circuit somewhere) which might be what is causing sudden current spikes which are throwing your breakers. I believe however that your electronic equipment will still suffer even when the field is stationary.

My best guess is something extra has been routed onto this D.C. line recently which is drawing more current (a lot more) but has not been compensated for in the other lines, i.e. all the load has been dumped onto one line. This will be causing the imbalance I think. It would be interesting to have a look at major construction projects which have been taking place in your town lately and see if this gives something away. Also maybe something has recently been de-comissioned causing the imbalance (perhaps more likely if these lines have been around a long time).

Remember when you said your computer guy said the T1 connection was super fast in one location of the building? Might be very interesting to see how that part of the building relates to the D.C. line's location compared to where it was situated when it was going very slowly.

The incident with your pallet wrapper is incredible and shows potentially just what a hopeless battle you've been fighting recently. I think it will be getting sorted out now though. I have to say I also suspect a lawsuit might be on the horizon for your lost earnings, assuming the power lines have been imbalanced without adequate investigation by the persons responsible for distributing their power.

Keep us informed please mate this is most interesting

*LOL just don't ask anyone with a hearing aid to visit your property at the moment either!

 

[Adder_Noir]

Just one thing to note although I suppose it's not your issue anyway but what the hell.

If the D.C. line relies on the neutral return path of each phase/live running next to each other to cancel out magnetic fields then if a phase/live has been routed back through the wrong neutral somewhere further down the line then that could be causing all this trouble. Might be worth mentioning

 

[business man]

I will, Monday.
Thanks
Scott

 

[business man]

We had a hit last night that tripped the breaker on our phone system that was inside a faraday cage, surrounded on all sides but the back wall away from the source. Now I have to completely surround it. If that doesn't work, then i don't know what else to do.

Maybe the wires coming into the room that are not caged could be causing the breaker to trip.

Our T1 line still gets too much noise (we have not been able to get the company out until next week to do the job), we took some of the long network cables offline and that helped the noise a bit.

No word from DWP yet.

 

[Danger]

Do you have the option of moving your operation to the other side of town?
No offense intended... it just seems that what you have to do to overcome this might not be worth it.

 

[Adder_Noir]

Maybe the wires coming into the room that are not caged could be causing the breaker to trip.

It's a fair assumption, given what happened to your pallet wrapper.

**Edit

I have an uber stupid idea which I suppose might just be crazy enough to work.

As I understand it when a magnetic field hits a conductor the resultant energy required to set-up a voltage in the conductor causes the magnetic field's energy to drop.

So here is my ridiculous suggestion. Sorry but I really just have to say it.

Stupid Idea:

Is it possible for you to get a HGV (Big Rig in USA terms) parked sideways across part of your building which houses the sensitive equipment so it's between you and the power lines, and then ground the truck's body? It might work as a temporary solution.

Feel a bit embarassed just saying it, but it might work

 

[Danger]

it might work

Man, but I love seeing people think outside of the box.

 

[Adder_Noir]

Not the most high tech solution but you never know

 

[Danger]

Too right. In a situation like this, anything that helps is good regardless of what it looks like.

 

[business man]

I will suggest that. We have big rigs to use as a parasite field absorber

We can't move, I own the building, so if I can't solve the problem for our company, how could I lease it to another company.

 

[berkeman]

You said that the warehouse-style company in your same building has no problems. Find the right kind of low-tech use for your property, disclose the problems in the sale, and there you go. Maybe your neighbor is looking to expand anyway...

 

[Adder_Noir]

I will suggest that. We have big rigs to use as a parasite field absorber

We can't move, I own the building, so if I can't solve the problem for our company, how could I lease it to another company.

I think Berkeman has the best suggestion. If you do decide to give the truck option a try as a last gasp make sure you ground it at both ends

 

[Danger]

Yeah... it would seem that the type of equipment that you use is particularly succeptible to the sort of interference that you're experiencing. The only aspect of that that seems to be contradictory is the bit about the glowing wires which, from what I gathered, were simply part of the normal building wiring rather than a specialized circuit. If such is the case, then there must be something specific to the building itself, and you could not in good conscience dump it on someone else. (And the fact that you wouldn't want to puts you miles beyond most businessmen. Hats off to you for that.)

 

[berkeman]

(And the fact that you wouldn't want to puts you miles beyond most businessmen. Hats off to you for that.)

I agree with Danger, hats off to you Buisness Man. In the beginning of this thread, I was concerned that you were just trolling for statements to use in a a lawsuit against the power company, regardless of what the underlying cause-effect relationship was.

But in the *many* pages of this thread, it is clear that you want to get to the bottom of the problem no matter what the explanation is, so that you can get your business back on track and productive. Your honesty and straighforward nature have become very apparent in the course of this thread, and we all wish you the best in the outcome. Hang in there and figure it out! (or sell out to U-Haul or somebody and move to a quieter place...)

 

[business man]

Your kind words and support are very much appreciated

The latest today:

THE PHONES STAYED UP! We had two hits today that took out the lights for a few seconds but did not trip any breakers. I have a feeling either DWP is working on the problem or the demand is down in the area, because the hits have diminished substantially.

I think the shielded T1 might be finished tomorrow, so hopefully our internet connection will be more stable now. Computers have been staying up but we have limited use because of damage to drives. Our new hardware will not be ready to install for a couple weeks, I hope everything is sorted by then.

We are still renting a generator for the phones and computers. Something dawned on me recently. doesn't a big generator use magnetic breaker protection? They will tell me in the morning, if so, why don't they trip? Is it because the generator is not grounded or because it is grounded to Earth and not the building and local water lines?

We decided not to attempt the big rig idea. If you saw how much this building dwarfs one, you would know why. The building is huge and you could probably fit three or four hundred of them within its volume. The entire roof structure is made of steel trusses about 30ft high, with lots of sprinkler pipes and aluminized insulating paper stapled to the ceiling joists.

I hope this will be over soon. It sure is better though for now. All of the staff is really hanging in there. I'm sure they are very curious and frustrated but are keeping a possitive attitude. This company has the best team of any company that I know of. Even with all of these problems, I am still a very fortunate Business Man

 

[Danger]

Sounds as if you deserve a loyal staff. Continued good fortune to you.

 

[business man]

Thanks Danger.

Unfortunately more bad news today, phones and computers are down!
I will try to have more details later as to why it happened. We think possibly the new Dmark shielded phone line and equipment might have contributed to todays problems.

 

[Danger]

****!
Don't worry too much, dude... we're here for you.

 

[NoTime]

I noticed that you said problems increased as you improved grounding.
A thought occurs to me.
The normal electrical ground is made locally to the building.
However, everything is also grounded back at the various source points, Phone and power for example.

If you have a nearby transmision tower it also has a local ground connection.
Not all soils make for good ground points.
If a nearby tower had a leaking(arcing) insulator the power could possibly flow back into your ground connections to better grounds elsewhere.

 

[business man]

I will suggest it.

I talked to the dwp guy today that had a meter on the water pipes at the outside of building. He faxed over the graph and told me that everything was at or well below acceptable levels.

I am going to the building in the morning with my hvac guy to check out some wiring. He said today that one of our units showed 15 volts on the ground leg!

He is not a wiring expert but he does have a lot of hvac experience and he thinks it's a wiring problem. Four of our a/c units on the roof are, for some reason single phase, all others are 3phase.

I have a funny feeling he is on to something. The breakers for these units may NOT have been turned off the night we ruled out hvac as a possible problem. The breakers for these units were not marked, which he found out after tracing them today.

The problem I have with this direction is that why would the problems be so inconsistant and escalating and so random.

What do you guys think? It sort of makes me think we should have followed through methodically with more discipline the early suggestion of starting with everything off and adding things one at a time. The problem with this is we can sometimes go nearly all day without a single event and then have 5 in a matter of a few hours.

 

[business man]

The division of DWP that handles the DC line says that 2 of our events coincide with some sort of ramping up or down with their line, but two other events happened during a time that the lines were down for maintenance.

So not much help here so far.

 

[Adder_Noir]

Hmm...I'm must admit the fact you got two incidents whilst those lines were down does comply a bit more with conventional thinking that it's a wiring fault. I assume HVAC systems use quite a lot of power.

A dodgy wiring fault would account for your problems. Remember that more than likely your HVAC will operate when sensors installed in your building tell it to. It will also shut off when your sensors tell it to.

Try increasing the level of ambient temperature you want the HVAC to achieve and see if this increases the number of incidents you keep having. Alternatively just get a HVAC engineer out to look at at. It sounds to me like you might have a hefty Earth fault on one of your units which caues problems when the sensor kicks in and tells it to start up.