Major in what you're PASSIONATE in and other useless platitudes

[MissSilvy]

Outta curiosity, who is this mysterious Joe Schmoe person who seems to be doing no work and getting compensated so well? If you know him, why don't you ask him how he does it? It seems like what you want.

And post your results, by the way. I'd also like to be him!

While your oodles of sarcasm are delightful, there will always be someone who does less work than you but still gets paid the same. It happened all the time in the jobs I had up until this point, and I've heard all about it from people who are already in the industry. Joe Schmoe isn't a person; he's a fact of life.

 

[SonyAlmeida]

Have you ever asked said people their secrets? They sound like they've got the system figured out better than you have. Seriously, if you don't want to do more than these people, then don't. But you'll have to learn how they manage to get away with it.

 

[gmax137]

... there will always be someone who does less work than you but still gets paid the same...

That's one of the points I was trying to make. And given that it is true, why worry about it? Work at what you like, and work as hard at it as you want. Don't worry about "the other guy' and how much they get paid. Seems to me that the self-motivated people are the happiest, and usually they end up ahead. Not always, but...

Sorry for the platitude

 

[chiro]

MissSilvy if you want lots of money consider using your skills that you acquire in initial work to start up your own business.

Lets say you're doing physics/math/engineering. There are tonnes of opportunities available for you. Let's look at mathematics/physics first off.

You get some experience in a good company for five to ten years and then become a consultant. Or perhaps you become frustrated with something like a common need you see that people want and you go into business for yourself and give them that need.

You could do an MBA and be in heaps of debt but there are that many resources out there for you for free that can help you, you will have plenty of advice from books, websites, or people at your local chamber of commerce.

If you think pay is crap, you have a good idea that you think you can capitalise on and commercialize and also find a niche where no-one can just imitate you, then by the sounds of what you've said about yourself so far, its something you might want to look into.

Even if you don't want to start your own business there are plenty of high paying positions out there. Do engineering and law and become a patent lawyer. Do a few degrees and become a consultant. Actuaries earn about 200K after the exams are done and 5+ years of having them.

So if you don't like the system with the job market then take a risk. Lifes full of them and the best learning experiences will no doubt come from taking a calculated plunge into the unknown (note that I said calculated).

Anyway good luck with your future.

 

[MissSilvy]

Have you ever asked said people their secrets? They sound like they've got the system figured out better than you have. Seriously, if you don't want to do more than these people, then don't. But you'll have to learn how they manage to get away with it.

What a sad society we live in when we have to work as slowly or badly as we can get away with in order to avoid more work. :/

Chiro- Thanks so much! That was actually a very helpful and informative post. Even though I don't think patent law or actuarial science are for me, they're interesting suggestions. I like the consulting idea but from what I've seen, companies frown on doing consulting in your free time. Who knows though, I may have to do more research or talk to more people. Thank you for the advice and the sentiments :)

 

[TMFKAN64]

You really can't consult in your free time without prior approval from your employer. Many or even most employers want you to sign away anything you do while employed for them before you even start work. This applies to anything you do on your own time, as well.

You're either a consultant or an employee. It really is an either/or type of thing.

 

[chiro]

What a sad society we live in when we have to work as slowly or badly as we can get away with in order to avoid more work. :/

Chiro- Thanks so much! That was actually a very helpful and informative post. Even though I don't think patent law or actuarial science are for me, they're interesting suggestions. I like the consulting idea but from what I've seen, companies frown on doing consulting in your free time. Who knows though, I may have to do more research or talk to more people. Thank you for the advice and the sentiments :)

MissSilvy I wouldn't recommend consulting while working because that could damage your reputation severely if people found out.

What I was trying to say was that you could get trained up in some field and then later take your knowledge with you by working for yourself.

Lots of people do this. You might for example work in R&D for a good solid company and you might have ideas about some great product, process or innovation that there is a good market for. Some people end up in this situation because they try and sell their ideas to the executives who don't buy it and then that person leaves, starts their business with a initial minimum patent portfolio and reap the rewards.

I will blunt about something else though: many businesses fail to hold up over a long period of time. If you find a company that values growth and hard work by their employees you might want to think about getting employed there and working your way up to a senior management level. Being a senior manager or executive in a well established company might be more rewarding (and generally less risky) than heading your own company, and allows you to make use of more extensive resources than it would in a startup.

If you want to start your own company or work for yourself I recommend you work in a business that either a) make extensive use of the kinds of business that you plan on starting or b) work in a business that has the same sort of role as the business you wish to start up yourself.

Its possible to start your own business without this but I strongly caution against it. Business can be a complex thing and it can be even more complex nowadays especially where a companys patent portfolio is a valuable commodity that allows them to do the business that they are actively engaged in.

If you're an engineer I strongly recommend you read about patents if you wish to do consulting. Remember that no matter how technically apt you are, if it can't make money, if it doesn't improve someone elses situation, or if it doesn't offer value to your customer, its basically rendered useless.

Also if you are a consultant and bring to the table a business perspective you will generally be more valuable to your clients than someone who doesn't have one. All companies are competing to stay alive tomorrow and if they don't or can't make money, then everything else is just fluff.

My parents owned two businesses so I learned a bit from being part of that business. Typically you can find good companies that will rotate you in different departments to let you get a good feel of the business and subsequently of the industry. If you find a company that does that then I would recommend taking that opportunity. The reason is that once you get a feel of how the different departments help meet the end goal: that is bringing value to the customer and all that is a consequence of that, then as a consultant you will be more valuable.

Also be aware of everything you sign as an employment agreement. If you intend to start your business there may be clauses that prohibit you from doing certain activities when you leave. Remember a companies IP is often their competitive advantage and as such they will retain as much as possible. Also as a consultant showing a firm understanding and respect for IP will bring more trust to who your working with and show a level of professionalism.

 

[Andy Resnick]

You really can't consult in your free time without prior approval from your employer. Many or even most employers want you to sign away anything you do while employed for them before you even start work. This applies to anything you do on your own time, as well.

You're either a consultant or an employee. It really is an either/or type of thing.

MissSilvy I wouldn't recommend consulting while working because that could damage your reputation severely if people found out.

<snip>

These statements are not always true.

I have a consulting company (they are surprisingly easy to start), but there are some clear boundaries- no using University resources (printers, email, etc) for my consulting gig, I must declare "conflicts of interest" annually, stuff like that.

What TMFKAN64 mentions is generally considered a conflict of interest; if my consulting activities overlapped with my job duties, that's a conflict. Corporate attorneys can provide more official guidelines for that.

What chiro brings up may refer to cases where a person did in fact have a conflict of interest and tried to conceal it.

 

[turbo]

You're getting some pretty good advice, MissSilvy. If you want to get into a demanding field and get a few years under your belt AND get a good reputation in that field, you can strike out on your own. I worked for a couple of years as THE industry specialist for the 2nd-largest training company in the world, after 10 years in the relevant industry with NO degree. The company failed to bolster the division with more people with knowledge of that industry, and when a new vice-president started trying to change my terms of employment, I left, and they were screwed. At no time did I kick the traces and moonlight when I was working for them, but a couple of years in high-profile projects was all it took to keep me in consulting contracts for years. If I had wanted to spend more time traveling, and grinding, I could easily have made over $100K/year, and this was almost 20 years ago. As it was, I lived at home in Maine and pulled in $60K/year or more with about a week per month on-site.

You'd better get your ducks in a row if you want to try this path - I was required to carry $1M in liability coverage by one of the companies that I consulted for, because the systems in question were quite dangerous. You'd better have some pretty heavy industry references if you want to try to get that kind of coverage without a ruinous premium.

 

[TMFKAN64]

What TMFKAN64 mentions is generally considered a conflict of interest; if my consulting activities overlapped with my job duties, that's a conflict. Corporate attorneys can provide more official guidelines for that.

No, I actually meant more than just a conflict of interest. Most of my employers have required me to sign a form stating that *any* IP created while I work for them is theirs. Any IP that is already mine needs to be identified in advance.

I have no idea how common these forms are... I have found them common in the computer industry, but it's always dangerous to generalize one's experience. But the wording pretty much rules out consulting without prior approval, since you'd be giving away your employer's IP!

I notice that you work for a university... indeed, that's very different. Now that I think about it, I know many people who are employed by a university but consult on the side. But given that you need to declare conflicts of interest, etc. I think I would interpret this as universities usually give permission to their employees who wish to consult.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Yeah, it's not a major obstacle. I'm currently less an employee and more of a subcontractor- in effect, I rent space from the University to perform my research and teaching duties. That makes the barrier very low.

Where I was, at a contractor, I recall having statements similar to what you mention- the issue is, of course, the phrase "IP created while I work for them". Again, an attorney would have to advise on that point, but on the face of it, if your IP has no relation to your job, you do not use company IP to generate your IP, and you develop your IP not during regular office hours, the company would have a difficult claim to make.

 

[TMFKAN64]

See, that's the advantage of having salaried employees vs. hourly employees... you can claim that the salaried employees are *always* working for you!

I don't recall the exact wording, but I do recall that it was a stunningly broad claim on creative output. And while I agree they would have a difficult legal claim (and probably wouldn't even bother to pursue it if it wasn't a definite conflict of interest), that's pretty much the point of having you sign... they won't claim it's fair or they deserve it, just that you agreed to it.

Anyway, this is getting far off topic... I think the point that we can both agree on is to check with an attorney of you have any questions in this field, because it is definitely an area where you need to be careful.

 

[Animastryfe]

Physicists, unfortunately, are poorly-rewarded for their incredible value to society -- all of the stuff that we engineers make is ultimately dependent upon the goofy new things they discover in their pure research. By some estimates, 30% of the US's GDP is due to products developed using quantum mechanics.

- Warren

Holy cats, that much? Could you provide a cite so I can read more about it?

 

[rabbitweed]

If you expect to work 9-5, don't pursue engineering. You will likely be salaried (no overtime) and if you work in mills or on construction projects, you will be expected to work a lot of hours. If you are an engineer, and a pulp mill or paper machine is in a chaotic upset, don't even think of heading for the parking lot at the "end of the day."

It's attitudes like yours that lead to employers treating Engineers the way they do.

If you work more than is specified in your contract for no extra pay, you are basically giving your company money for free.

 

[rabbitweed]

What do you mean by this? I've probably misunderstood, but I can't think of anywhere in my life thus far that I've been awarded for just showing up somewhere.

It's just your typical old person ranting. He probably had to walk 15 miles in the snow, kids these days, etc etc.

 

[Wax]

Anything in the medical field will get you a steady high pay. You should go that route if you're concerned with money.

 

[rabbitweed]

Anything in the medical field will get you a steady high pay. You should go that route if you're concerned with money.

Do your research first though. I thought Medical Physics would be good money here, but it really isn't considering the amount of training and teaching they make you do. YMMV.

 

[turbo]

Do your research first though. I thought Medical Physics would be good money here, but it really isn't considering the amount of training and teaching they make you do. YMMV.

Dunno. Would you consider operating an MRI for 8 hours a day onerous? Sounds like a good gig to me.

 

[rabbitweed]

Dunno. Would you consider operating an MRI for 8 hours a day onerous? Sounds like a good gig to me.

Where I live, after getting a Masters, they have to be in a low paying placement for 2 or 3 years before becoming accredited, during which time they have to teach, unpaid, outside their normal work hours.

After all that they get a smidgen more than an Engineer fresh out of uni with a 4 year degree.

It probably varies a lot from place to place. What's it like where you live?

 

[gmax137]

It's attitudes like yours that lead to employers treating Engineers the way they do.

If you work more than is specified in your contract for no extra pay, you are basically giving your company money for free.

It's just your typical old person ranting. He probably had to walk 15 miles in the snow, kids these days, etc etc.

hahahaha I think you should print this thread out, and seal it in an envelope, with "do not open till 2020" on it. Put it someplace where you won't see it too often before then. On second thought, maybe you should wait till 2029 before reading it again.

 

[turbo]

Where I live, after getting a Masters, they have to be in a low paying placement for 2 or 3 years before becoming accredited, during which time they have to teach, unpaid, outside their normal work hours.

After all that they get a smidgen more than an Engineer fresh out of uni with a 4 year degree.

It probably varies a lot from place to place. What's it like where you live?

I'm not sure about pay scales, but doctors, nurses, and medical technicians are in great demand here. Like many areas that are quite rural, it can be tough to recruit qualified medical professionals. My wife's cousin is in radiology and judging from the new house she and her husband built recently, she's got to be making some serious bucks. Her husband was a game warden and later worked as a letter-carrier, so I know he was not pulling down big money.

 

[rabbitweed]

hahahaha I think you should print this thread out, and seal it in an envelope, with "do not open till 2020" on it. Put it someplace where you won't see it too often before then. On second thought, maybe you should wait till 2029 before reading it again.

Say what you will, I've worked a in trades, labouring, warehousing and the like, and even the lowliest forklift driver or box stacker does not take the crap from their boss I hear engineers talk about taking all the time. Go talk to a skilled or un-skilled labourer about working unpaid overtime, and he'll laugh in your face.

 

[TMFKAN64]

There are definite advantages to being hourly and/or unionized. Most engineering jobs, however, are neither, and employees have few protections as a result.

 

[Choppy]

Say what you will, I've worked a in trades, labouring, warehousing and the like, and even the lowliest forklift driver or box stacker does not take the crap from their boss I hear engineers talk about taking all the time. Go talk to a skilled or un-skilled labourer about working unpaid overtime, and he'll laugh in your face.

Of course, what happens when these people show up five minutes late in the morning? Or if they have to take an extra half hour over lunch to take their kids to the dentist? El docked payo. You also have to deal with unions forcing you into a strike over issues that you couldn't care less about, and limiting opportunities for performance-based career advancement.

I'm not saying that unions don't have their place. What I mean to say is that the grass is often greener on the other side of the fence.

 

[gmax137]

This is beginning to get off topic, but...

If you think you'd be happier punching a time clock and working in an adversarial (labor-management dichotomy) situation, you should probably not pursue a career as an engineer.

 

[chem123]

Anything in the medical field will get you a steady high pay. You should go that route if you're concerned with money.

Deep sea welding.

 

[rabbitweed]

Of course, what happens when these people show up five minutes late in the morning? Or if they have to take an extra half hour over lunch to take their kids to the dentist? El docked payo. You also have to deal with unions forcing you into a strike over issues that you couldn't care less about, and limiting opportunities for performance-based career advancement.

I'm not saying that unions don't have their place. What I mean to say is that the grass is often greener on the other side of the fence.

Valid point.

But my original contention was; contracts for a salaried position will surely have a maximum number of hours the employee is required to work, wouldn't they? Working beyond that is simply letting yourself be walked over, unless you have some kind of direct stake in the company profits.

 

[rabbitweed]

If you think you'd be happier punching a time clock and working in an adversarial (labor-management dichotomy) situation, you should probably not pursue a career as an engineer.

Isn't that precisely what happens in some industries for Engineers, eg Oilrigs and the like? AFAIK they have a very strict roster.

 

[rabbitweed]

If you think you'd be happier punching a time clock and working in an adversarial (labor-management dichotomy) situation, you should probably not pursue a career as an engineer.

Maybe if Engineers stood up for themselves more they wouldn't be getting scrrewed into doing free work.

 

[TMFKAN64]

contracts for a salaried position will surely have a maximum number of hours the employee is required to work, wouldn't they?

Not really. I could only find two of my past offer letters... one said nothing on the subject of hours. The other, being a part-time position, said "three days per week", but did not give a specified number of hours to be worked per day.

The expectation is generally that you will work more than 8 hours on the average. If you can get more done in less time, you probably won't have a problem working less... people are generally measuring results, not hours.

In my experience, most engineers do not think of this as a labor vs. management issue. For better or for worse, there is very little class consciousness among engineers.