Martian Independence: Orbital Bombardment Possibilities

[GTOM]

For my story i wonder about a situation where Mars try to gain independence from Earth.
I specified that fusion ships should have around 100MW for 100 ton in order to maintain miliG acceleration for months.
So a destroyer's cannons could fire 10MJ x-ray beams in every second for a while (laser focusation equipment more sensitive to heat than thrusters, a laser cannon could be damaged by a scale smaller one).
Fleet around Mars counts 15 various kinds of ships, battleship too. I estimated 400 MJ in every second. As far as i know, Martian atmosphere swallows at most 10-20% of x-rays.

Question, is it a bit plausible, that a reinforced government building (no energy shields) could withstand such a siege for a minute?

After the fleet leave, orbital fighters still remain. Low orbital speed around Mars is 3km/s. So a squadron of fighters could do even more damage in a second with kinetic bombardment, than the fleet's cannons, but they can't attack continously (only with 1-2 MJ cannons).

Would the thin atmosphere of Mars cause any significant trouble in guiding kinetic bombs at orbital speed?

 

[RyderP]

I - or rather, my cousin, came up with a better idea: if you place an electro-conductive metal thruster between two magnetic fields - say, those of two worlds - you have an electric current, which can then be rode, like a surfboard on an ocean wave, to your destination.

 

[GTOM]

I - or rather, my cousin, came up with a better idea: if you place an electro-conductive metal thruster between two magnetic fields - say, those of two worlds - you have an electric current, which can then be rode, like a surfboard on an ocean wave, to your destination.

I wouldn't rule out beamriding, but only for short ranges, since beams scatter.
Tell your cousin that magnetic fields and electric currents connecting interplanetary distances are total irreal.

 

[SlowThinker]

Question, is it a bit plausible, that a reinforced government building (no energy shields) could withstand such a siege for a minute?

It is almost certain that any settlement on Mars will be underground until the atmosphere is terraformed to become breathable, at which point it will absorb probably even more X-rays than Earth's atmosphere.
If the building is several meters under ground, it will be almost impossible to dig it out using lasers since a deep thin hole would close itself. You'd have to vaporize hundreds of tons of sand, which would take at least several hours unless I'm making an order of magnitude error.

 

[GTOM]

It is almost certain that any settlement on Mars will be underground until the atmosphere is terraformed to become breathable, at which point it will absorb probably even more X-rays than Earth's atmosphere.
If the building is several meters under ground, it will be almost impossible to dig it out using lasers since a deep thin hole would close itself. You'd have to vaporize hundreds of tons of sand, which would take at least several hours unless I'm making an order of magnitude error.

I think about lead glass covered streets on the surface. (Additional protection during solar storms)

http://www.space.com/23875-mars-radiation-life-manned-mission.html

(I didnt find crackpot in that one)
http://www.universetoday.com/14979/mars-radiation1/

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Lets try and work it through: How much energy does it take to melt a cubic metre of lead? Wiki tells me that the molar heat capacity of lead is 26.65J/mol/K, given one mol of lead would be 82 grams and the density is 11.34g/ml one cubic centimeter would require 3.686J to be raised one degree; a cubic meter would therefore take ~3.7MJ. Lead melts at 327°C, assuming a starting temperature of -100°C (Mars night average) to melt a cubic meter of lead would require ~1.56GJ of energy.

If the Government bunker had a 100m2 roof with a 10cm thick layer of lead on it and the fleet is hitting it evenly with 320MJ of energy it would take 48.75 seconds to melt it all.

There's a couple of assumptions in there that will change the time, it assumes a perfect transfer of energy uniformly throughout the led (rather than pulsing the laser and ablating the roof into gas/plasma, layer-by-layer) and it assumes the bombardment is uniform. It also assumes that the melted lead will be enough (because it will either melt through into the building or flow off, exposing a more vulnerable surface).

If the lead had to be boiled off then it would need to be raised in temperature by another 1400°C. In total that would be a little over 4 minutes of bombardment.

Just bear in mind that this is a theoretical, imperfect way of going about it. In reality you'd more likely focus on key points with the goal of burning through and hitting key targets inside (like load bearing walls).

 

[GTOM]

Lets try and work it through: How much energy does it take to melt a cubic metre of lead? Wiki tells me that the molar heat capacity of lead is 26.65J/mol/K, given one mol of lead would be 82 grams and the density is 11.34g/ml one cubic centimeter would require 3.686J to be raised one degree; a cubic meter would therefore take ~3.7MJ. Lead melts at 327°C, assuming a starting temperature of -100°C (Mars night average) to melt a cubic meter of lead would require ~1.56GJ of energy.

If the Government bunker had a 100m2 roof with a 10cm thick layer of lead on it and the fleet is hitting it evenly with 320MJ of energy it would take 48.75 seconds to melt it all.

There's a couple of assumptions in there that will change the time, it assumes a perfect transfer of energy uniformly throughout the led (rather than pulsing the laser and ablating the roof into gas/plasma, layer-by-layer) and it assumes the bombardment is uniform. It also assumes that the melted lead will be enough (because it will either melt through into the building or flow off, exposing a more vulnerable surface).

If the lead had to be boiled off then it would need to be raised in temperature by another 1400°C. In total that would be a little over 4 minutes of bombardment.

Just bear in mind that this is a theoretical, imperfect way of going about it. In reality you'd more likely focus on key points with the goal of burning through and hitting key targets inside (like load bearing walls).

Looks like it isn't that fearful as i thought.
The key target could be members of Parliament just announcing independence.
Drill through multiple stories is easier than melting the roof, so reach the council chamber. Could beams possibly create an explosion, by vaporizing part of the floor?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Looks like it isn't that fearful as i thought.
The key target could be members of Parliament just announcing independence.
Drill through multiple stories is easier than melting the roof, so reach the council chamber. Could beams possibly create an explosion, by vaporizing part of the floor?

As I said there's a lot of assumptions there, the big one being that the energy from the laser is evenly distributed. It's entirely likely it wouldn't be. Instead you might pulse the laser, pumping as much power as possible into a short beam, to turn the surface layer to plasma. As the plasma expands it will damage the layer beneath. Exactly how powerful that would be I'm not sure. John Scalzi has a very similar scenario to yours in one of his books, the Human Division I think. A key world is about to declare independence from the military junta ruling human civilisation. As the vote is about to be cast in the planetary parliament a soldier parachutes towards the chamber ceiling. Just before they hit a ship in orbit rapidly ablates a hole for them, allowing them to arrive in the chamber in style and explosion to deliver the ultimatum not to leave.

 

[SlowThinker]

The key target could be members of Parliament just announcing independence.

I hate to sound negative but members of parliament gathering in one place to vote sounds like 19th century, not 22nd.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I hate to sound negative but members of parliament gathering in one place to vote sounds like 19th century, not 22nd.

So put them in a segregated house area where they can walk to work without transport. Then meeting face-to-face would be less of a problem. It could a part-time resident, when government was in session.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I hate to sound negative but members of parliament gathering in one place to vote sounds like 19th century, not 22nd.

I wonder if/when we'll see a permanently distributed national government, where for all debates/votes it's just done through VR.

 

[GTOM]

I hate to sound negative but members of parliament gathering in one place to vote sounds like 19th century, not 22nd.

Good to know that we are in 19 century.

Although i expect hero team to hack the security of Parliament (i don't know whether physically access cables between cameras and security hub is enough if they use quantum cryptography, but probably governor decided its better to steal the money and use the old way inside an already highly secure buliding) so technically remote voting becomes possible.

Then Earth can say but the voting was hacked, but if rebellious MPs are hiding, they can't make them tell, it wasnt really us, it was a trick.

 

[Drakkith]

Would the thin atmosphere of Mars cause any significant trouble in guiding kinetic bombs at orbital speed?

If the effect is significant, they would necessarily have to account and correct for it if they have these weapons. Even if there are difficulties, I see no reason to think that they couldn't be overcome by a weapons designer. As usual, if you want the in your story, put them there.

 

[GTOM]

Since Mars don't have rainstorms, could it be bit realistic to escape from bombardment through sewer system?

Im a bit confused, whether real sewers have enough place for humans or not?

 

[Drakkith]

Since Mars don't have rainstorms, could it be bit realistic to escape from bombardment through sewer system?

Im a bit confused, whether real sewers have enough place for humans or not?

As far as I am aware, only the very old sewer systems are large enough to allow humans to pass through.

 

[SlowThinker]

Since Mars don't have rainstorms, could it be bit realistic to escape from bombardment through sewer system?

Im a bit confused, whether real sewers have enough place for humans or not?

There is this thing called https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_tunnel. They seem to be more expensive than just burying the cables & pipes under ground but if you need it, it's perfectly reasonable to have them in a city.

 

[newjerseyrunner]

Wait, if you melt the top layer of lead, the next pulse will simply heat up the liquid on the surface more. You can't simply expect it to melt. What happens if you blast an ice cube with a blowtorch? If you add up all of the energy provided, it should be plenty to melt the ice cube, but in reality, you'll end up with a slightly smaller ice cube with a lot of very hot vapor and water. The better the insulating properties, the harder it is to melt something because the other layers deflect most of the energy. Dirt is a really good insulator.

 

[GTOM]

Wait, if you melt the top layer of lead, the next pulse will simply heat up the liquid on the surface more. You can't simply expect it to melt. What happens if you blast an ice cube with a blowtorch? If you add up all of the energy provided, it should be plenty to melt the ice cube, but in reality, you'll end up with a slightly smaller ice cube with a lot of very hot vapor and water. The better the insulating properties, the harder it is to melt something because the other layers deflect most of the energy. Dirt is a really good insulator.

But with thin air melting and vaporization heat is close to each other isn't it?

 

[GTOM]

There is this thing called https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_tunnel. They seem to be more expensive than just burying the cables & pipes under ground but if you need it, it's perfectly reasonable to have them in a city.

Thanks. I also thought, that they built bigger tunnels for the sake of protection if the city was attacked, lead glass breached.

 

[GTOM]

Story goes on. Mars rebels, Earth fighters (bigger ships has to go to Mercury) from Deimos base keep bombing rebels. What could be the methods to supply fighters, so they have to return to base for repairs only? If they launch a crate from base with a coilgun, and it would spiral into low orbit (or reach it another way), how much delta-V should be needed to capture it?
(crate don't have any kind of thrusters, guidance, the point is to trust most recon/guidance/self defence to the orbital spacecraft s. )

 

[Drakkith]

Why don't you just make the supply crate a supply ship?

 

[GTOM]

Why don't you just make the supply crate a supply ship?

A large supply ship is vulnerable on low orbit, also a crate only has to go forth, not back.

 

[Drakkith]

Isn't the delta-v going to depend on the orbit your fighters are in?

 

[GTOM]

Isn't the delta-v going to depend on the orbit your fighters are in?

Yes, they can have different orbits, although i think they focus on equitorial areas (capital is near to equator, space elevator) they will also bomb a mining town not that very far.

 

[Drakkith]

Well, I don't think I can help you much. May I ask why you want small, unguided supply crates? It seems a bit like throwing supply barrels into a river in the hopes that the ships downstream can catch them without them missing or the barrels being destroyed/intercepted prior to pickup. And do you have worked out how your fighters are capable of picking up and using these supply crates?

 

[GTOM]

Well, I don't think I can help you much. May I ask why you want small, unguided supply crates? It seems a bit like throwing supply barrels into a river in the hopes that the ships downstream can catch them without them missing or the barrels being destroyed/intercepted prior to pickup. And do you have worked out how your fighters are capable of picking up and using these supply crates?

i would compare it to parachuting supplies.
A small unguided crate launched by coilgun hard to detect, but it can signal the fighter when it gets somewhat close. Then fighter can take the same orbit, the crate opens, fighter gets fuel or new bombs.

Main question is, what kind of orbital mechanics should it have?
Slowed down than spiral down from Deimos? Or some other orbital manuever?

 

[Drakkith]

Slowed down than spiral down from Deimos? Or some other orbital manuever?

Without some kind of propulsion, just about the only choice it has is to fall down in an arc and either hit the planet or go into an elliptical orbit. If it passes close enough to the planet it can be slowed down by the atmosphere over successive orbits though.

 

[SlowThinker]

I wanted to suggest elliptic orbits but now I think it's not a good idea. If you match horizontal speeds, the vertical speed will be 10s or 100s meters per second (guessing...). But a launched crate will either have elliptic orbit, or orbit with Deimos, or need its own propulsion. So if you want to pick it up at low orbits, you need motors.
If it has motors, it can easily chase the fighters on its own. Actually it might even attempt to return to the base.

 

[GTOM]

I wanted to suggest elliptic orbits but now I think it's not a good idea. If you match horizontal speeds, the vertical speed will be 10s or 100s meters per second (guessing...). But a launched crate will either have elliptic orbit, or orbit with Deimos, or need its own propulsion. So if you want to pick it up at low orbits, you need motors.
If it has motors, it can easily chase the fighters on its own. Actually it might even attempt to return to the base.

The fighters have trusters to chase a crate. They could return to Deimos too, i just wondered what are the faster options for resupply.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

Could you make the crates eject the reloads toward the fighter so that they could intercept them?

 

[GTOM]

Could you make the crates eject the reloads toward the fighter so that they could intercept them?

What difference does it make that fighter capture crate or crate ejects stuff?

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

What difference does it make that fighter capture crate or crate ejects stuff?

Or both. The ejection would accelerate the reloads, meaning the fighters have less deceleration to do. The crate would also be able to supply a larger volume of space, and the fighters wouldn't have to come so close to the crate.

 

[GTOM]

Or both. The ejection would accelerate the reloads, meaning the fighters have less deceleration to do. The crate would also be able to supply a larger volume of space, and the fighters wouldn't have to come so close to the crate.

eject don't give that significant amount of delta-V (it begins from half km/s)

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

eject don't give that significant amount of delta-V (it begins from half km/s)

Potato guns work on compressed air.

 

[GTOM]

Potato guns work on compressed air.

if the crate isn't much heavier than cargo then recoil would blow away the crate and give only small delta-V to supply

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

if the crate isn't much heavier than cargo then recoil would blow away the crate and give only small delta-V to supply

There a way to deal with that, but it's probably more complicated than you want.

 

[GTOM]

There a way to deal with that, but it's probably more complicated than you want.

Well there can be multiple means.
A slow but not so resource demanding way is that fighters shift between Deimos and low orbit.
If everything launched from Deimos had good sensors, thrusters, electronics etc, they could precision strike surface targets without fighters.

The ideal would be a middle solution, combine orbital spacecraft ability with not so slow resupply (although Olympos Mons fortress can also play a major role in supplying)

 

[SlowThinker]

If everything launched from Deimos had good sensors, thrusters, electronics etc, they could precision strike surface targets without fighters.

Not really, the Marslings can have antimissile weapons, so if you wanted to hit something with a ballistic/spaceborn missile, it would have to have high maneuverability, flares, high intelligence, basically it would have to be a fighter.
The U.S. and Russia still use fighters and bombers in Syria even though they have full control over space and intelligent missiles.

 

[GTOM]

Not really, the Marslings can have antimissile weapons, so if you wanted to hit something with a ballistic/spaceborn missile, it would have to have high maneuverability, flares, high intelligence, basically it would have to be a fighter.
The U.S. and Russia still use fighters and bombers in Syria even though they have full control over space and intelligent missiles.

Yes. So i guess the supply crates could also have some basic thrusters and guidance to match orbit more closely with fighters through a bieliptical transfer or something like that.
Also supply from Fort Olympos could be launched with a big coilgun, then boost even closer to orbital speed.

 

[Noisy Rhysling]

I picture a cylinder with reloads all over the outside. Think of a ear of corn. The cylinder is mostly compressed gas. The "kernels", or reloads, are fired in pairs, equal force to keep Newton happy. One or both are fired directly at where a fighter will be, and the fighter snags them as they arrive. The other, if not directly where the reload will be, has to do some maneuvering, or the reload is just ignored. There could be "blanks" for the worst case orbital trajectories, one fighter getting reloads and the blank just going off into space.

Complicated-ish, but all just a matter of engineering, no new science involved.

 

[GTOM]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phobos_(moon)

"The most prominent of these is the crater, Stickney, (named after Asaph Hall's wife, Angeline Stickney Hall, Stickney being her maiden name) a large impact crater some 9 km (5.6 mi) in diameter, taking up a substantial proportion of the moon's surface area. As with Mimas's crater Herschel, the impact that created Stickney must have nearly shattered Phobos."

Can it be a realistic concern that some 100km/s nukes could finish the job, and shatter the moon?
Tech level in my story isn't enough to build megastructures, or (large) moon killers.

 

[Drakkith]

Can it be a realistic concern that some 100km/s nukes could finish the job, and shatter the moon?

Yes, a number of nuclear weapons could shatter a small moon such as Phobos. Underground tests here on Earth have indicated that a 'cracked zone', the region wherein the rock is cracked, exists with a radius of 80-120 meters per kiloton of weapon yield. Outside of that, a zone of irreversible strain exists 800-1100 m/kt in radius.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_nuclear_weapons_testing

 

[stefan r]

Yes, a number of nuclear weapons could shatter a small moon such as Phobos. Underground tests here on Earth have indicated that a 'cracked zone', the region wherein the rock is cracked, exists with a radius of 80-120 meters per kiloton of weapon yield. Outside of that, a zone of irreversible strain exists 800-1100 m/kt in radius.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_nuclear_weapons_testing

that is per kt^⅓

There should be some differences in a porous material.

 

[Drakkith]

that is per kt^⅓

Oh. I thought those were citations.