Maxwell's Equations in Different Lorentz Frames: Are They Equivalent?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the equivalence of Maxwell's equations in different Lorentz frames, particularly whether the equations retain their form when expressed in three-vector notation versus covariant (four-dimensional tensor) notation. Participants explore the implications of transforming these equations and the challenges associated with each representation.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the three-vector form of Maxwell's equations, such as ##\nabla \cdot \vec B = 0##, holds in a primed Lorentz frame, suggesting that it can be proven through tedious calculations.
  • Others argue that knowing the covariant form makes the process straightforward, indicating a preference for using tensor notation over three-vector equations.
  • Some participants reference examples from literature, such as MTW, where covariant equations simplify the derivation of three-vector forms.
  • There are differing opinions on the tediousness of working with three-vector equations, with some finding it cumbersome while others assert it is manageable.
  • One participant introduces a method to derive electric and magnetic fields using four-vector relations, suggesting that this approach is less common but effective.
  • Another participant challenges the reliance on rank-2 tensors, proposing that the Lorentz four-force can be expressed without them, although this perspective is met with skepticism.
  • Discussions also touch on the relationship between the d'Alembertian operator and the Laplacian in the context of four-dimensional spacetime, with some expressing a preference for vector notation for its simplicity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the equivalence of the three-vector and covariant forms of Maxwell's equations. There are multiple competing views regarding the ease of use and clarity of each representation, as well as the validity of various methods proposed for deriving relationships between electric and magnetic fields.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve assumptions about the familiarity with covariant forms and the mathematical rigor required for transformations. The debate also highlights the subjective nature of what constitutes a tedious process, depending on individual preferences for notation and approach.

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Do the Maxwell equations in the usual 3-vector form have the same form in any Lorentz frame? For example, the one that says ##\nabla \cdot \vec B = 0## will be valid in another, primed Lorentz frame? That is ##\nabla' \cdot \vec {B'} = 0##?
 
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kent davidge said:
Do the Maxwell equations in the usual 3-vector form have the same form in any Lorentz frame? For example, the one that says ##\nabla \cdot \vec B = 0## will be valid in another, primed Lorentz frame? That is ##\nabla' \cdot \vec {B'} = 0##?
Yes. It is a tedious exercise, but you can work through it and prove it.
 
Dale said:
Yes. It is a tedious exercise, but you can work through it and prove it.
How is it tedious? Knowing the covariant form of Maxwell’s equations I find it pretty straight forward ...
 
Orodruin said:
How is it tedious? Knowing the covariant form of Maxwell’s equations I find it pretty straight forward ...
It is tedious to me because using three-vector equations is always tedious when you know the covariant equations.
 
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Dale said:
using three-vector equations is always tedious when you know the covariant equations

IIRC, MTW give some examples where the covariant (4-D tensor) equations can be used to derive the 3-vector equations more easily than the 3-vector view itself can, and one of the examples has to do with transforming EM fields.
 
Dale said:
It is tedious to me because using three-vector equations is always tedious when you know the covariant equations.
The easiest way of doing it is first showing that the full covariant form implies the three-vector form. This in itself is just a couple of lines.
 
Orodruin said:
The easiest way of doing it is first showing that the full covariant form implies the three-vector form. This in itself is just a couple of lines.

It seemed messy to me as well, but I suppose if you look up the dual of the Faraday tensor (here denoted as G) in terms of the E and B field components from wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_tensor or some other more reliable textbook, you can get ##\nabla \cdot B = 0## from ##\partial_a G^{a0} = 0##

Doing all the equations still strikes me as a pain, though.
 
pervect said:
Doing all the equations still strikes me as a pain, though.
It really isn’t. I would do it but I am on my phone and writing TeX on the phone is a pain.
 
Orodruin said:
It really isn’t. I would do it but I am on my phone and writing TeX on the phone is a pain.
So here goes (up to arbitrary unit-dependent constants). The main thing to remember is that (using Greek letters for indices going from 0 to 3 and Latin letters for those going from 1 to 3):
$$
E^i = F^{i0} \quad \mbox{and} \quad B^i = -\epsilon_{ijk}F^{jk}/2 \quad \mbox{or} \quad F^{ij} = -\epsilon_{ijk} B^k.
$$
From ##\partial_\mu F^{\mu\nu} = J^\nu## follows that
$$
\rho = J^0 = \partial_0 F^{00} + \partial_i F^{i0} = 0 + \partial_i E^i = \nabla \cdot \vec E
$$
and that
$$
\vec J = \vec e_i J^i = \vec e_i \partial_\mu F^{\mu i} = \vec e_i [\partial_0 F^{0i} + \partial_j F^{ji}] = - \partial_t \vec E - \vec e_i \epsilon_{jik} \partial_j B^k
= - \partial_t \vec E + \nabla \times \vec B.
$$
The remaining Maxwell equations follow in exactly the same way but for the dual field tensor with no source term. I honestly don't think that this is "a pain". It is just about splitting the sum in ##\partial_\mu F^{\mu\nu}## into the temporal and spatial parts.
 
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  • #10
Orodruin said:
$$
B^i = -\epsilon_{ijk}F^{ij}$$
See, I find even just writing down this theee vector right here tedious. I mean, I always worry about making a mistake while writing the components of ##\epsilon_{ijk}##.
 
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  • #11
Dale said:
See, I find even just writing down this theee vector right here tedious. I mean, I always worry about making a mistake while writing the components of ##\epsilon_{ijk}##.
But much less tedious than actually doing it in the three-vector formalism ...
 
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  • #12
It's actually possible to obtain the electric and magnetic fields from four-vector relations alone—no rank-2 tensors, no Ricci-calculus notation. Haven't seen anyone else do it this way, but it works, and I find it helpful. Your mileage may vary.

The "trick," if you want to call it that, is that the four-tensor expression ##(\partial^{\mu} A^{\nu} - \partial^{\nu} A^{\mu}) U_{\nu}## is "like" the "cross product" between ##\mathbf U## and the "curl" of ##\mathbf A##. I use scare quotes because there is no such thing as a cross product or curl of four-vectors (unless one tweaks some definitions, which some people do), but the analogy is perfect if you use the "bac - cab" expansion of the vector triple product.

Here's what I mean. With Feynman notation, we have the following three-vector identity:

## \mathbf a \times (\nabla \times \mathbf c) = \nabla_{\mathbf c} (\mathbf a \cdot \mathbf c) - (\mathbf a \cdot \nabla) \mathbf c ##.

The analogy I'm drawing is with the right side of that expression:

## (\partial^{\mu} A^{\nu} - \partial^{\nu} A^{\mu}) U_{\nu} = \vec \partial_{\mathbf A} ( \mathbf U \cdot \mathbf A ) - ( \mathbf U \cdot \vec \partial ) \mathbf A ##,

where ##\vec \partial = (\partial^t, - \nabla) ## is the four-del operator (sorry for mixing arrow notation in there—emboldening ##\partial## doesn't work).

So the Lorentz four-force can be notated like this (##c = 1##):

##\mathbf F = q \left( \vec \partial_{\mathbf A} ( \mathbf U \cdot \mathbf A ) - ( \mathbf U \cdot \vec \partial ) \mathbf A \right) ##,

where ##\mathbf U = (U^t, \mathbf{u} )## is the four-velocity of the test charge and ##\mathbf A = (A^t, \mathbf{a})## is the four-potential. (And the Feynman notation here is extraneous superfluous [edited], since the particle's four-velocity has no dependence on four-position anyway.) If you write that in "1 + 3" component form, after some work (including the three-vector "bac - cab" rule) you end up with:

##\mathbf F = q \left( \mathbf{u} \cdot (- \nabla A^t - \partial^t \mathbf{a}), \, U^t (-\nabla A^t - \partial^t \mathbf{a}) + \mathbf{u} \times (\nabla \times \mathbf{a}) \right)##.

Then define the three-vector fields ##\mathbf e## and ##\mathbf b## to simplify that:

##\mathbf F = q \left( \mathbf{u} \cdot \mathbf{e}, \, U^t \mathbf{e} + \mathbf{u} \times \mathbf{b} \right)##.
 
  • #13
That’s just replacing F by dA, which is a rank 2 tensor.
 
  • #14
Yes, but both ##\vec \partial (\mathbf U \cdot \mathbf A)## and ##(\mathbf U \cdot \vec \partial) \mathbf A## are four-vectors. I'm saying that you can start with the Lorentz four-force written in terms of them, without bringing the Faraday tensor into the picture at all.
 
  • #15
My point is really that the Lorentz four-force is "like"

##\mathbf F = q \left( \mathbf U \times ( \vec \partial \times \mathbf A ) \right)##,

except that those individual operations involving ##\times## aren't defined (you've got to use the "bac - cab" rule).

Here, covariant electrodynamics (Lorenz gauge) with four-vector notation alone:

##\Box \mathbf A = \mathbf J##

##\mathbf F = q \left( \vec \partial (\mathbf U \cdot \mathbf A) - (\mathbf U \cdot \vec \partial) \mathbf A \right) ##.

Is all this entirely uninteresting? I don't know, I kind of like it. The d'Alembertian is like the Laplacian, and the second equation is like a vector triple product involving a curl. Ricci calculus is obviously incredibly powerful, but I'm just a hobbyist, and vector notation is far easier on my eyes and pea-brain.
 
  • #16
SiennaTheGr8 said:
The d'Alembertian is like the Laplacian, and the second equation is like a vector triple product involving a curl.
Well, yes, it has to be. It is how the curl and the Laplace operator generalise to a 4D Lorentzian spacetime (i.e., the exterior derivative of a one-form and just the trace when the gradient is taken twice).
SiennaTheGr8 said:
and vector notation is far easier on my eyes and pea-brain.
I don't see what is wrong with ##F = dA## and ##d*F = *J## from that perspective - if removing indices is what you are after.
 
  • #17
Orodruin said:
I don't see what is wrong with ##F = dA## and ##d*F = *J## from that perspective - if removing indices is what you are after.

Sure, the exterior algebra stuff is clearly superior... if you're comfortable with it. :wink:
 
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