Meaning and derivation of 4-vector

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    4-vector Derivation
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the meaning and derivation of the 4-vector in the context of Lorentz transformations, exploring its implications in special relativity, particularly the role of the time component 'ct' and the scalar product of 4-vectors. Participants delve into the conceptual understanding of these elements and their mathematical properties.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question why the Lorentz transformation uses 'ct' instead of 't', suggesting it relates to unit consistency with spatial dimensions.
  • There is a proposal that the geometry where (ct)^2 has a minus sign is the most suitable for modeling the physical world, though this is debated.
  • One participant mentions that in certain contexts, the distinction between 't' and 'ct' becomes irrelevant when using units where c=1.
  • Concerns are raised about the scalar product of 4-vectors, specifically why it is defined with a minus sign, contrasting it with the scalar product of 3-vectors.
  • Participants discuss the meaning of the 0th component of the four-momentum, which is identified as energy divided by c, and question whether this is a definitional choice or has a deeper rationale.
  • There is a request for clarification on how the Lorentz transformation maintains the invariant nature of the scalar product across different inertial frames.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of 'ct' and the implications of the minus sign in the scalar product of 4-vectors. No consensus is reached regarding the best geometric framework for understanding these concepts, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference different contexts, such as covariant and contravariant vectors, which may influence their interpretations. The discussion also highlights the potential confusion arising from varying definitions and treatments of time and space components in different frameworks.

simoncks
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Meaning of ct in Lorentz transformation -
In Lorentz transformation matrix, the first column is defined as - ct, not t itself. Is it because ct satisfies the units of x, y, z? Or, simpler Lorentz transformation matrix will be derived? The idea of 'ct', instead of t, is quite abstract for me. Not sure whether it is conceptually correct to consider ct as -
a meter of x*(0) corresponds to the time it takes light to travel 1 meter in vacuum.

Derivation and use of 4-vector scalar product -
Why is the scalar product defined in such way, where square of 'ct' has a minus sign? How to prove its invariant property for any inertial frame? Already in a big mystery...
How about the momentum 4-vector? What does p0 in the first row mean?

Thanks a lot.
 
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A meter along the ct axis corresponds to the time it takes for light to travel one meter, yes.

There are only a few geometries that have an invariant speed and obey a relativity principle. The geometry where (ct)^2 picks up a minus sign happens to be the best candidate for modeling our world.

The 0th component of the four-momentum is the energy (divided by c).
 
simoncks said:
Meaning of ct in Lorentz transformation -
In Lorentz transformation matrix, the first vector is defined as - ct, not t itself.

Relativists typically work in units where c=1, so the distinction between t and ct is irrelevant.

I assume you mean the first component of the vector, rather than the first vector?

It's not true generically that the 0th component of the position vector has that minus sign. Are you working in a context where covariant and contravariant vectors like xk and xk are defined? Or are you talking about old-fashioned treatments where the timelike component is ict (not -ct)?
 
There are only a few geometries that have an invariant speed and obey a relativity principle. The geometry where (ct)2 picks up a minus sign happens to be the best candidate for modeling our world.
Isn't the velocity of an object varying in different inertial frames? Can you explain further about why this geometry is the best candidate? It is quite abstract...

The 0th component of the four-momentum is the energy (divided by c).
Is there indeed a reason why 0th component is E/c? Or, it is simply defined in such way?

I assume you mean the first component of the vector, rather than the first vector?
Yes. Sorry, to be confusing.

It's not true generically that the 0th component of the position vector has that minus sign. Are you working in a context where covariant and contravariant vectors like xk and xk are defined? Or are you talking about old-fashioned treatments where the timelike component is ict (not -ct)?
I am working in covariant and contravariant vectors, but what confuse me is the scalar product. For 3-vector, the scalar product is x2+y2+z2. The 4-vector one is rather different -
-(ct)2+x2+y2+z2
It is a problem why the scalar product is defined such an 'abnormal' way, with a minus sign.
 
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simoncks said:
I am working in covariant and contravariant vectors, but what confuse me is the scalar product. For 3-vector, the scalar product is x2+y2+z2. The 4-vector one is rather different -
-(ct)2+x2+y2+z2
It is a problem why the scalar product is defined such an 'abnormal' way, with a minus sign.

Does this help?

For a 3-vector, it's x2+y2+z2 that is the same for all observers, i.e., regardless of how you rotate the x, y, and z axes.

For a 4-vector, it's easiest to think in just one spacelike dimension and one timelike one, so we have only t and x. Then the Lorentz transformation looks like figure k here: http://www.lightandmatter.com/html_books/lm/ch23/ch23.html . What stays the same for all observers is -t2+x2 (in units with c=1). This is because the Lorentz transformation doesn't change the diagonal line x=t, which represents motion at the speed of light.
 
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Thanks for your help. The link gives a really clear explanation.
 

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