Meat or No Meat? What's Your Take on Animal Treatment and Evolutionary Diets?

[jaydnul]

On one hand I see the videos of animals being mistreated and think of course meat eating is wrong. On the other hand, if treated properly, I see that farm animals live much better lives than if they were out in the wild. Well fed, plenty of socialization, and death is quick and painless while in the wild it would probably be torturous. Plus, and this is conjecture, I suspect that humans need some sort of meat intake solely for evolutionary reasons.

So what are some of your opinions on this. Do you eat animal products, and if so, how do you ensure that they have been treated well?

 

[jobyts]

I eat big fishes so that small fishes can live happily ever after.

 

[dipole]

First of all, your vision of cows wandering freely in green pastures and farmers cheerfully throwing feed out to the chickens as they peck about the yard in idyllic peace and living a happy life until the butchers blade comes is very naive and distorted. Yes, many smaller farms which produce what you might call organic products offer their animals a very comfortable existence, but the modern farming industry is rife with cruelty and most animals live in terrible conditions.

This is how a typical hen which produces most of the eggs you'll find at the grocery store spends her life:

Confined to a cage where it can do nothing but eat and lay eggs. When egg production declines, I assume it's slaughtered for meat. Do you care? This is a personal question, and honestly the ethics of modern farming methods are only a secondary issue in my opinion.

The real concern with animal consumption is environmental. A huge fraction of pollution, deforestation, and CO2 production directly stems from the production of meat. For every pound of beef chicken and pork produced, some number of acres of forest had to be destroyed to produce farmland to grow the feed for those animals. Soy farming, for the production of cattle feed, is the leading contribution to the destruction of rainforests in South America (at least circa 2009 when I did research on this subject).

That being said, do I eat meat? Yes I do. Mainly because at this point in my life, to substitute the nutritional benefits of meat (i.e. the amount of lean protein I require to achieve my athletic goals) with a purely vegetarian diet would be cost prohibitive. Veganism is extremely fashionable, and frankly expensive. It's very easy for me to grill up a chicken breast and get a good 40-50 grams of protein with having to consume a huge amount of food. I don't know how to accomplish that with just vegetables. I don't know of a single person who is vegan and successful at strength-related sports who is not of very small stature (i.e. has below average caloric requirements).

So yes, I eat animal products, mostly out of selfishness. Ultimately, however, I think there is no real ethical justification for consumption of meat. We just value, as a society, personal vanity, expression, dietary preference and athleticism above animal suffering and environmental destruction.

 

[jaydnul]

First of all, your vision of cows wandering freely in green pastures and farmers cheerfully throwing feed out to the chickens as they peck about the yard in idyllic peace and living a happy life until the butchers blade comes is very naive and distorted. Yes, many smaller farms which produce what you might call organic products offer their animals a very comfortable existence, but the modern farming industry is rife with cruelty and most animals live in terrible conditions.

Ya, I figured I was rationalizing. Is there anyway to ensure humane treatment of the animals you're eating? I had an unsuccessful Google session so thought I'd ask the forum instead.

 

[JorisL]

The real concern with animal consumption is environmental. A huge fraction of pollution, deforestation, and CO2 production directly stems from the production of meat. For every pound of beef chicken and pork produced, some number of acres of forest had to be destroyed to produce farmland to grow the feed for those animals. Soy farming, for the production of cattle feed, is the leading contribution to the destruction of rainforests in South America (at least circa 2009 when I did research on this subject).

That's the main reason I'm trying to eat 'vegetarian' dishes 2-3 times a week. It's also for my health but that's of less impact lately (running to the rescue).
I wonder what the actual/real cost of our massive meat consumption, mostly in the west, regarding the environment is.

However I can't imagine not eating meat ever again. Think of all the ribs and steaks.
Also how about getting together with your neighbours/friends/relatives/... and together buying like a cow or pig which you let a decent farmer raise (over here they exist). My grandparents used to do that, but it is quite a bit of work when it comes back from the slaughterhouse e.g. bag it, make black pudding etc.

 

[klimatos]

So what are some of your opinions on this. Do you eat animal products, and if so, how do you ensure that they have been treated well?

I am 83 year's old. I try to eat meat of some sort at least twice a day. I believe that this is necessary for my brain to function at an optimal level. I base this belief on experience.

I have no reliable way of knowing how my food was raised, anymore than I have any reliable way of knowing whether my underwear was made in some sweat-shop. Consequently, I do not worry about it.

The vast majority of all environmental concerns can be traced back to simple overpopulation. The world would be a much nicer place if the world population were only one billion. Any volunteers? (Don't look at me!)

 

[Monique]

I have no reliable way of knowing how my food was raised, anymore than I have any reliable way of knowing whether my underwear was made in some sweat-shop. Consequently, I do not worry about it.

I'm surprised, that should make you worried. It sounds more you assume it's done correctly, are there no quality systems that score the products or organizations that could encourage such a practice? I donate money to an organization that checks the quality of farm animals and checks the source of meat in stores. I don't eat meat, my diet does not require it.

 

[klimatos]

I'm surprised, that should make you worried. It sounds more you assume it's done correctly, are there no quality systems that score the products or organizations that could encourage such a practice? I donate money to an organization that checks the quality of farm animals and checks the source of meat in stores. I don't eat meat, my diet does not require it.

No, Monique, I am too old to believe that it is or ever will be done correctly--not as long as it is done by human beings. I believe that societies can improve, but that human nature (whatever that is) will remain pretty much the same. Some people are naturally cruel, and will subject living things in their care to cruelty, many more are simply ignorant of better ways of doing things, quite a few are simply lazy and will do their job the easy way rather than the right way. Indolence, ignorance, and malice will always be with us to some degree.

Instead, I concentrate on solving the problems that I can solve, correcting the injustices that I can correct, and teaching the ignorant that there are better ways of doing things. I used to chide the indolent when I was younger, but I now believe that it is a waste of time and energy.

Animals are treated better now than when I was a boy. I can take no credit for this. Society has progressed, dragging its human components (some of them kicking and screaming) right along with it. The future--one hopes--will be even better.

 

[Pythagorean]

First of all, your vision of cows wandering freely in green pastures and farmers cheerfully throwing feed out to the chickens as they peck about the yard in idyllic peace and living a happy life until the butchers blade comes is very naive and distorted. Yes, many smaller farms which produce what you might call organic products offer their animals a very comfortable existence, but the modern farming industry is rife with cruelty and most animals live in terrible conditions.

This is how a typical hen which produces most of the eggs you'll find at the grocery store spends her life:

Confined to a cage where it can do nothing but eat and lay eggs. When egg production declines, I assume it's slaughtered for meat. Do you care? This is a personal question, and honestly the ethics of modern farming methods are only a secondary issue in my opinion.

The real concern with animal consumption is environmental. A huge fraction of pollution, deforestation, and CO2 production directly stems from the production of meat. For every pound of beef chicken and pork produced, some number of acres of forest had to be destroyed to produce farmland to grow the feed for those animals. Soy farming, for the production of cattle feed, is the leading contribution to the destruction of rainforests in South America (at least circa 2009 when I did research on this subject).

That being said, do I eat meat? Yes I do. Mainly because at this point in my life, to substitute the nutritional benefits of meat (i.e. the amount of lean protein I require to achieve my athletic goals) with a purely vegetarian diet would be cost prohibitive. Veganism is extremely fashionable, and frankly expensive. It's very easy for me to grill up a chicken breast and get a good 40-50 grams of protein with having to consume a huge amount of food. I don't know how to accomplish that with just vegetables. I don't know of a single person who is vegan and successful at strength-related sports who is not of very small stature (i.e. has below average caloric requirements).

So yes, I eat animal products, mostly out of selfishness. Ultimately, however, I think there is no real ethical justification for consumption of meat. We just value, as a society, personal vanity, expression, dietary preference and athleticism above animal suffering and environmental destruction.

My impression is exactly the opposite as far as cost is considered. Per gram of protein, meat is much more expensive than legumes and grains - that's how my family saves money, by only eating meat for about half of our meals or spreading the meat really thin across several otherwise vegetarian meals (basucally jusy for taste).

 

[dipole]

What I mean is to eat an equivalent amount of protein while keeping a similar caloric intake, there are very few substitutes available. One would likely have to use expensive protein supplements like soy-protein in addition to a balanced diet.

Now, if you allow for the consumption of products like eggs and dairy, or include fish, then the issue is rather moot, however fish is quite expensive as far as meat goes.

 

[George Jones]

I sometimes eat vegetarian meals; e.g., last night I had: eggplant; rice; dhal; hot pepers (both dried in the dhal, and raw separately); in vinegar, raw onions, radishes, and cucumbers; achar (South-Asian pickles). I, however, also love eating meat, something that I will never give up.

 

[Drakkith]

I do not generally worry about how animals are treated in the food industry. Not because I don't care, but because I have many other things of which I am concerned with and only have a finite amount of time/effort to go around. I leave it to those who have the time and effort to focus on this to make things better, which is what everyone does to some degree since no one can focus on everything they find wrong in the world.

 

[Pythagorean]

I do not generally worry about how animals are treated in the food industry. Not because I don't care, but because I have many other things of which I am concerned with and only have a finite amount of time/effort to go around. I leave it to those who have the time and effort to focus on this to make things better, which is what everyone does to some degree since no one can focus on everything they find wrong in the world.

To some extent, I agree; but I admire people who take steps to make the individual contributions in their lives.

 

[StonedPhysicist]

but it tastes good?

 

[Psinter]

I eat animal products, but I do not posess the resources to verify that they have been well treated.

Although the eggs I buy say they are organic and that their chickens are free to roam on the farm and blah blah blah. Not that I believe them anyway. They could as much have the soil where their chickens walk contaminated and give no detail whatsoever about it.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I'm generally ok with meat eaters. I try my best to stick with fish and turkey when I need to eat meat. I do however believe the animals should be cared for as well as they can. I don't mind spending a bit more for that extra treatment.

 

[Danger]

I'm a strict carnivore; the only pleasure that I derive from eating is in knowing that something died violently so that I could eat it. The perfect fast food consists of a chainsaw and a cow—fire is optional. I wouldn't eat a carrot until sometime in the 70's when some idiot in California came up with a theory that plants were intelligent. (I do have enough Irish blood, however, that potatoes are honorary meat.)

 

[Monique]

Really all of you are ok with having no idea? At least you can voice that you want to know where your meat comes from and support a change in the system. When consumers don't care, the producers won't care.

In the Netherlands the animal protection agency is installing a "better life feature", where producers can earn stars by implementing certain conditions. People are encourage to buy products with at least a single star. In my opinion a single star is still a very poor living condition, but at least it installs some kind of an independent measure for the production process.

 

[JorisL]

In the Netherlands the animal protection agency is installing a "better life feature", where producers can earn stars by implementing certain conditions. People are encourage to buy products with at least a single star. In my opinion a single star is still a very poor living condition, but at least it installs some kind of an independent measure for the production process.

But often these are snapshots, which can be expected/prepared for by farmers. So how correct are these?
If I ever get enough land, I'd like to keep some (or a single) cows and pigs for meat. Also some chickens.
Why? Superior meat, rather cheap, you are certain about good treatment (if that's what you want!).
Also it makes for some independence from the outside world.

 

[Monique]

But often these are snapshots, which can be expected/prepared for by farmers. So how correct are these?

You can say that about everything. I work in a hospital and we are checked regularly to maintain our certificates. When normally we may not always wear a lab coat when walking into a research lab, on such an occasion everyone will. Does that mean it's useless to issue certificates, because it's a snapshot observation? Surely it is not: it sets a standard and everyone is reminded of it regularly. If you fail to keep up with the standards, the certificate is lost.

 

[Drakkith]

Monique, it's not that I don't care, it's that in a world with so very many things to worry about, the care of animals simply isn't usually near the top of my list.

 

[Pythagorean]

Really all of you are ok with having no idea? At least you can voice that you want to know where your meat comes from and support a change in the system. When consumers don't care, the producers won't care.

In the Netherlands the animal protection agency is installing a "better life feature", where producers can earn stars by implementing certain conditions. People are encourage to buy products with at least a single star. In my opinion a single star is still a very poor living condition, but at least it installs some kind of an independent measure for the production process.

We make an effort to buy local, often right on the farm. But most often, we're looking at prices, not stars, to avoid enduring our own suffering :p

 

[Monique]

Monique, it's not that I don't care, it's that in a world with so very many things to worry about, the care of animals simply isn't usually near the top of my list.

That's why I don't eat meat and donate money to an organization that tries to improve animal welfare, that way I can spend time worrying about other things. I don't think denial is a good thing, but you're right there are so many thing to worry and care about. I wish I could care less about the world sometimes and spent my time in other ways.

 

[DiracPool]

Really all of you are ok with having no idea? At least you can voice that you want to know where your meat comes from and support a change in the system. When consumers don't care, the producers won't care.

In the Netherlands the animal protection agency is installing a "better life feature", where producers can earn stars by implementing certain conditions. People are encourage to buy products with at least a single star. In my opinion a single star is still a very poor living condition, but at least it installs some kind of an independent measure for the production process.

I think this is a situation where you clearly need governmental regulation and oversight. As Drakkith said, it's too burdensome to try to keep an accounting of all the injustices that are imposed upon animals in the meat industry. One should feel confident to walk into a supermarket and feel that the lamb that gave up its lamb shank for you and the cow that gifted you its ribeye was treated well, had a good life, and had a good sendoff.

I had a girlfriend in college (in the bay area, of course) who's sister could not stop obsessing over reading the labels of every item of food we purchased to see if was on some politically correct list of suppliers to purchase from. It drove me nuts. I told her I was not going to walk into the supermarket with a manual to check every item I buy against this list and end up not getting what I want, or even worse, paying twice as much for it. Because, at the end of day, what do you really know about how your sacrifices are going to pay out in the long term, or what's really going on behind the scenes. If one wants to pay an extra 2 bucks for a carton of eggs because it says they're from cage free chickens treated humanely or whatever, go for it, but we as consumers we should not be the ones policing this, it should be our governments that are making sure our animals are being treated humanely.

And choosing not to eat meat so as to set an example is an exercise in futility, there will always be a huge market for animal meat as long as carnivores/omnivores are extant, it will never go away.

 

[leroyjenkens]

it should be our governments that are making sure our animals are being treated humanely.

That's a good point. Animal cruelty is against the law... unless you're going to make money off of that cruelty, then it's ok. What?

And choosing not to eat meat so as to set an example is an exercise in futility, there will always be a huge market for animal meat as long as carnivores/omnivores are extant, it will never go away.

There will probably always be meat eaters, because they know animals are being killed to make their bacon, they just don't care. Bacon tastes a little bit better to them than any vegetarian alternative, and that's worth the death.

 

[DiracPool]

That's a good point. Animal cruelty is against the law... unless you're going to make money off of that cruelty, then it's ok. What?

Well, that's not an argument against the social/legal model, that's an argument against the effective enforcement of it. Or to add to that, the effective suite of statutes that address the issue. If you want to fight animal cruelty, write your congressperson or hold a demonstration in front of the nearest relevant legislative house. Having the FDA bust down the doors with automatic rifles will get their attention a lot quicker than a relatively sparse and disorganized boycotting of their products by a few spirited vegans. This argument about implying some kind of consanguinity between the animal abusing marketeers and corrupt greedy politicians I think is misplaced. The squeaky wheel get the grease in politics, so be squeeky.

"There will probably always be meat eaters, because they know animals are being killed to make their bacon, they just don't care. Bacon tastes a little bit better to them than any vegetarian alternative, and that's worth the death."

I don't know what your point is here?

 

[Monique]

I think this is a situation where you clearly need governmental regulation and oversight.

In the Netherlands we have a political party for the animals in the government, I guess that's telling for our standard of living (we have the "luxury" to care about animal welfare).

And choosing not to eat meat so as to set an example is an exercise in futility, there will always be a huge market for animal meat as long as carnivores/omnivores are extant, it will never go away.

I'm not asking for the meat market to go away. About the futility: I don't agree that it's futile*. In my environment people are cutting out meat for most of the week and are making informed decisions when they do buy it. If I compare it to the reactions here there is a big difference.

There is a huge difference by country, last week I was in Denmark and the only food that was served was food with meat. I went to a restaurant with 16 people and asked if they could make something without meat (we had actually requested that when booking the table), but received the reply "no, we are a meat restaurant" "we can give you some decoration that normally comes with the meat". When I came back to the hotel all my clothes reeked like pig. I was so embarrassed having to wear my coat that smelled so disgusting that it made me nauseous.

This difference tells me that the Netherlands is quite developed in its awareness, which is lacking in other developed countries.

*I also have health reasons, besides animal welfare.

 

[Danger]

I went to a restaurant with 16 people and asked if they could make something without meat (we had actually requested that when booking the table), but received the reply "no, we are a meat restaurant" "we can give you some decoration that normally comes with the meat".

Back sometime around 1973, when I still lived in southern Ontario, my friends and I habitually ate at Burger King whenever went into the city. My niece and her friend, two old-time "flower children", hitch-hiked from Vancouver to visit (3/4 of the way across the country—about 4,800 km). Both were vegetarians . The reason that we favoured that place was because it was the only fast-food chain that allowed variants of their burgers. I'm allergic to vinegar, and it was absolutely impossible to get a Big Mac without sauce and pickles, or a Teenburger without ketchup and relish and pickles, and so on. So we went out to eat at BK and tried to obtain salads for the girls. No salads. No vegetable side-dishes other than fries. So I did me some thinking for a bit, and then asked if we could get 2 Whoppers, hold the meat. No problem. The girls got their salads in buns, for which we were charged 35 cents each. That was half the price of a normal Whopper. :D

 

[Monique]

So I did me some thinking for a bit, and then asked if we could get 2 Whoppers, hold the meat. No problem. The girls got their salads in buns, for which we were charged 35 cents each. That was half the price of a normal Whopper. :D

Yeah, BK is the only fast food place I go to :D The Danes weren't so nice: I had to pay 50 euros / 60 dollar for the meat decorations.

 

[Danger]

I had to pay 50 euros / 60 dollar for the meat decorations.

oo)

I wouldn't pay that much for a car.

 

[DiracPool]

When I came back to the hotel all my clothes reeked like pig. I was so embarrassed having to wear my coat that smelled so disgusting that it made me nauseous.

Interestingly, I have a funny story that incorporates the aroma issue, the monetary issue, and BK all in one fell swoop. When I fist moved out of home when I was 18, I lived in a high-rise in Waikiki with a friend of mine for the summer. We were understandably poor and in a ritzy tourist town you need to be resourceful in order to survive. So we found these coupons in one of the local free tourist rags for a buy one whopper, get one free. In any any case, I ate two of those every day for the better part of a month. I was the original "Super size me" experiment.

Needless to say, their came a point where I couldn't get even within two blocks of a Burger King for months because the smell of the wafting whoppers had me doubled over and retching. It was many years before I had a whopper again.