Melody ---> Chord Progression

[Swamp Thing]

New to Western music theory....

About this concept of chord progressions -- is it that there is a large set of "officially approved" chord progressions for a given key (eg C major), and someone composing a melody will typically select a progression first, and make the melody conform to it?

Or, would it work if we compose/improvise a melody first (or adapt it from a non-harmony-based genre like an Asian one) and select a progression from the "official" ones? Or, is it equally valid to generate one's own progression to suit the melody?

How would the above three composition methods compare with each other in terms of which one is most often followed?

Also, I see that many AI based progression generators are available. But --- why AI? What makes it such a non-algorithmic task?

 

[Hornbein]

New to Western music theory....

About this concept of chord progressions -- is it that there is a large set of "officially approved" chord progressions for a given key (eg C major), and someone composing a melody will typically select a progression first, and make the melody conform to it?

Or, would it work if we compose/improvise a melody first (or adapt it from a non-harmony-based genre like an Asian one) and select a progression from the "official" ones? Or, is it equally valid to generate one's own progression to suit the melody?

How would the above three composition methods compare with each other in terms of which one is most often followed?

Also, I see that many AI based progression generators are available. But --- why AI? What makes it such a non-algorithmic task?

I've composed some songs and pieces. I never considered having a method.

1. Start out with something you like and mutate it. Back In The USSR is pretty obvious. I'm told The Beatles did this a lot but were usually more subtle about it. Led Zeppelin often started from old blues songs.

2. Start with a feeling, something you want to express. I had the blues about today's world so I used the standard blues progression. I have composer friends who never use anything standard.

3. Had a song come to me in a dream.

4. I wrote a sea shanty one day. No idea where that came from.

5. Some start with life experiences. John Lennon's She Said She Said is about a conversation with Peter Fonda.

6. I'm very impressed with some stadium rock written by an AI. Better than the real thing if you ask me.

7. Richard Rodgers was very analytical, went to shows and studied when and why the audience reacted. I have read that disco was created in this way, studying scientifically what the mass of people liked. Thump thump thump thump.

In sum, I don't think there's any method. I don't have to produce (and don't) so I rely on inspiration and write quickly. It's not unusual for something written in haste to become a big hit. Superfreak was like that. Tom Petty said it takes him weeks, playing the same chords over and over.

I think music theory can be harmful. I believe it was bad for some composer friends of mine. Trying to do art as if it were engineering, having a system, is not my deal. Theory is useful to know standard names for things in order to communicate with other musicians.

The way to learn music is to copy the greats and absorb their methods. That's how Frank Zappa did it. He went to the library, not to school. That's how AI does it. Bob Dylan listened to a ton of folk music. Patrick Bartley Jr. says music professors thought he was too old school and gave him a hard time. Good thing he didn't listen to them. But John Coltrane studied music theory and did pretty well with it. Pat Metheny graduated from Berklee and it didn't seem to hurt him. Go figure.

 

[DennisN]

Or, would it work if we compose/improvise a melody first (or adapt it from a non-harmony-based genre like an Asian one) and select a progression from the "official" ones? Or, is it equally valid to generate one's own progression to suit the melody?

I've composed music and still do for fun.
I'll write something about my take on it all below...

To me, things often come in pieces (1), but sometimes a song can come as a whole pretty quickly (2).

1. Piecemeal composition

The pieces are different types; chord progressions, melody ideas, hooks, riffs and sometimes even just sounds and atmospheres (the "feel" of a sound that excites me).
I've got many such things around recorded as small recordings, ready to be incorporated into something if I am inspired to do so.

Piecemeal composition is fun, but it can take a very long time to do, and a bit frustrating when you get stuck. It is like building a puzzle, but the difference is that you as the composer are in control of what the puzzle will look like in the end.

2. All-in-one composition

What I mean by this is when a composition gets done very quickly. And with composition I mean the entire song (chord progressions, melodies, songs parts and lyrics). It could (but rarely does) happen as fast as one hour (or less) but not more than one day. This regretfully very rarely happens for me, but it has happened.

When you are in that very rare creative (and lucky, I'd say) mode and it all comes together like it is magic, it is extremely satisfying and gratifying afterwards. It is an AMAZING kick. And that's why songwriting can be a bit addictive, I'd say .

Chord progressions - in general

Knowing your way around chord progressions is a very good and useful tool when composing music. If you compose a lot of different styles over the years, you will get familiar with various usual or more unusual chord progressions.

But chord progressions can also get a bit boring sometimes, since I often then say to myself "nah, I've done it before/I've heard it before". The tricks I try during such times can be e.g. (1) to color the chords differently, (2) play them differently, (3) insert other small, quick chords in between the usual ones or (4) doing something other drastic like using an arpeggio that (sort of) follow the chord progression (the arpeggio may make the otherwise usual chord progression sound more interesting).

Edit:

For me things often come in this order (but certainly not always):

1. Chord progression(s) and possibly hooks (this happens since I most often start by pure improvisation).

2. Melodies and riffs (and sound choice, e.g. guitar, piano, keyboards etc).

3. Song structure (e.g. verses, bridges, choruses, breaks, solos, intro, epilogue).

4. Lyrics

5. Recording (personal/private demo), which during recording or after multiple listens of it sometimes demands remakes of things in point 1-4, since you then may hear that the things do not come out/fit the way you like them too. It can be frustrating and annoying, but you just have to go and weed things out and/or rewrite some and don't be afraid to kill your darlings (see https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/kill_one's_darlings).

 

[DennisN]

Or, would it work if we compose/improvise a melody first (or adapt it from a non-harmony-based genre like an Asian one) and select a progression from the "official" ones?

By the way, I wanted to add a thing about chord progressions that I think is worth mentioning...
A massive (overwhelming) amount of pop/rock/jazz (etc.) songs are built around usual or more unusual chord progressions, but there are some songs that use only one chord (or an extremely basic chord "progression", i.e. one chord and occasionally another chord). They are quite rare, but they do exist.

I've always been fascinated by those songs, because to make them work you have to do other creative stuff to make them interesting (interesting sounds, compelling feelings, tension building etc).

A perfect example of such a song that became very successful is the song "Angel" by Massive Attack (UK). It is essentially built around one chord (C minor and occasionally C major), but it's still a fantastic song. It's all about feeling, atmosphere and tension building in this song. It's actually a favorite song of mine.

The song:



A musical analysis of it (the analysis starts at 6:18):

 

[DennisN]

I'd also like to address two things you asked with more direct answers (again, from my personal viewpoint):

Or, would it work if we compose/improvise a melody first (or adapt it from a non-harmony-based genre like an Asian one) and select a progression from the "official" ones?

As I stated above, I usually start with some kind of chord progression and then try to build some "structure" above it. The structure could be a melody or a riff, or some kind of hook.

But sometimes you may have a melody idea instead, and try to develop that. For me, I sometimes hear ("wishful" hearing ) what kind of chords and moods I want to support a melody or riff. I may hear it like "ghost accompaniment" in my head, it's like the brain looking for the/a proper "filling" of music that isn't yet there in reality. And then it's my job to realize the imagined "filling" on keyboard or guitar.

Actually, I quite often compose like that, but it usually starts after I have some kind of basic chord progression(s).

But many other things can happen during composition. I often experiment and improvise. Sometimes I actually play my own stuff wrong in some way (I miss or misplace some note(s) or play the "wrong" chord or whatever) but like the error, so I incorporate it into the piece.
If I remember correctly I've heard quite many composers say that the same happens to them.

Or, is it equally valid to generate one's own progression to suit the melody?

It's art, so anything is valid . It truly is. All "established" musical "rules" are made by us humans, and it's good to know them, but it's also quite fine to break them. In fact, it's quite enjoyable when you break them, but you still are satisfied with the result.
In short: whatever that works, works.

 

[pinball1970]

New to Western music theory....

About this concept of chord progressions -- is it that there is a large set of "officially approved" chord progressions for a given key (eg C major), and someone composing a melody will typically select a progression first, and make the melody conform to it?

Or, would it work if we compose/improvise a melody first (or adapt it from a non-harmony-based genre like an Asian one) and select a progression from the "official" ones? Or, is it equally valid to generate one's own progression to suit the melody?

How would the above three composition methods compare with each other in terms of which one is most often followed?

Also, I see that many AI based progression generators are available. But --- why AI? What makes it such a non-algorithmic task?

What music do you like? What instruments do you play? Learning music is like learning any discipline, you have to absorb the nuts and bolts, the language.
Get a few songs you like then get the chords.

 

[pinball1970]

New to Western music theory....

About this concept of chord progressions -- is it that there is a large set of "officially approved" chord progressions for a given key (eg C major), and someone composing a melody will typically select a progression first, and make the melody conform to it?

Or, would it work if we compose/improvise a melody first (or adapt it from a non-harmony-based genre like an Asian one) and select a progression from the "official" ones? Or, is it equally valid to generate one's own progression to suit the melody?

How would the above three composition methods compare with each other in terms of which one is most often followed?

Also, I see that many AI based progression generators are available. But --- why AI? What makes it such a non-algorithmic task?

"Let it be," and "Imagine" are in C. Well known songs so you may know them.
Have a look at the chord structure.

 

[symbolipoint]

By the way, I wanted to add a thing about chord progressions that I think is worth mentioning...
A massive (overwhelming) amount of pop/rock/jazz (etc.) songs are built around usual or more unusual chord progressions, but there are some songs that use only one chord (or an extremely basic chord "progression", i.e. one chord and occasionally another chord). They are quite rare, but they do exist.

There are at least a couple of known songs based on one single chord:
Lime In The Coconut (Harry Nilsson)
and
Ode To Billy Joe (Bobby Gentry).

 

[symbolipoint]

Here is a mention of a song (if that's what it is) and you can decide if it does have or not have any chord or if you can pick out a rhythm:

Random Drug Testing (Cub Koda...)

 

[pinball1970]

There are at least a couple of known songs based on one single chord:
Lime In The Coconut (Harry Nilsson)
and
Ode To Billy Joe (Bobby Gentry).

Ode to Billy Joe is 3 chords, blues

 

[pinball1970]

There are at least a couple of known songs based on one single chord:
Lime In The Coconut (Harry Nilsson)
and
Ode To Billy Joe (Bobby Gentry).

Tomorrow Never Knows is one, kind of. It sounds like it goes from C to Bb in places but there are a lot of loops and things going on.

 

[Swamp Thing]

What music do you like? What instruments do you play?

I learned violin for a few years as a kid --- Indian Classical Music. Later in my 20s and 30s I dabbled in flute and slide (fretless) guitar, never getting any good at either of them.

For many, many years I listened to the BBC World service on shortwave radio, from which I acquired a taste for Western Classical and jazz, plus a bit of country and '60s pop. In these genres it is a case of "I don't know anything about it, but I do know what I like".

More recently YouTube has introduced me to new ways of enjoying all sorts of things -- for example, the channel Virgin Rock where a classical harpist "reacts" to modern popular music e.g. pop, metal and what have you.

I might listen on a typical day to a small YouTube channel like Phoebe Sanders playing folk/country on the banjo, followed by Regula Muehlemann singing Exultate Jubilate. Other times maybe an old time Bollywood movie song, or an Indian raga, or a YouTuber showcasing a home-made instrument.

 

[symbolipoint]

Ode to Billy Joe is 3 chords, blues

I could not tell any further than having read or come up to some source somewhere saying it was one chord. I also checked a couple videos of B. Gentry performing it; and sounded too like one single chord. A recheck should be in-order. C7 or C#7

 

[symbolipoint]

Ode to Billy Joe is 3 chords, blues

I found a simple what may be studio recording through Y.T. right now; I can barely detect maybe TWO chords in use. I'll try to actually use a guitar to try to duplicate what I hear, because from the recording, not too distinct.

 

[symbolipoint]

Ode to Billy Joe is 3 chords, blues

Again I am still rechecking based on the Y.T. recording. Most of the chords are (refering to duplicating directly on a guitar) D7. What I also should hear for some of the changes would be G7 and A7; but I cannot clearly hear those changes on the guitar being played on the recording.

I am doing the check against this:


A little more attention: While B. Gentry seems to be playing with only 1 chord, there is orchestral music which certainly seems to match the other expected chord changes, so for those members, yes three chords. In some parts, B. Gentry seemed to not play, instead of making chord changes.

 

[symbolipoint]

Yet again still checking. I found another video Ode To Billy Joe. Although the actual chord change is very difficult to distinguish by hearing on the video, there is a part of the video in which the use of a G7 chord can be reckoned. I am not yet sure about the playing of the A7 chord. Most of this song looks like self-accompaniment mostly in D7.



It seems conclusive, my earlier information I thought I had was wrong. This is not a one-chord piece of music.

 

[pinball1970]

It seems conclusive, my earlier information I thought I had was wrong. This is not a one-chord piece of music.

She is not playing all the notes of the chord so it is quite difficult to pick it out.
Watching her hand and listening to the bass note I get.

D7 or D9 then to A7 for the verse.

G7 for the change then D to C for the turn around so four total.

I have tried posting videos before but they are always too big.

 

[sandy stone]

Some songs are more about riffs (melody, if you like) than chord progressions. IIRC, the Creedence Clearwater song "Run Through the Jungle" was all one chord. Then you have a song like the Beatles' brilliant "Paperback Writer" which was only two chords, with the focus on the incredible a capella chorus and the riff following. I think the Frere Jaques backing vocal deserves a mention, too.

 

[Hornbein]

Lots of rap has only one chord. It's a very popular form of music.

Frank Zappa almost always played his guitar solos over one chord. Jimi Hendrix and Miles Davis would have lengthy one chord jams. The classical music of non-European nations is often one chord -- the tonal center does not move. The sitar plays in only one key (C sharp).

 

[pinball1970]

Some songs are more about riffs (melody, if you like) than chord progressions. IIRC, the Creedence Clearwater song "Run Through the Jungle" was all one chord. Then you have a song like the Beatles' brilliant "Paperback Writer" which was only two chords, with the focus on the incredible a capella chorus and the riff following. I think the Frere Jaques backing vocal deserves a mention, too.

Paperback Writer is what real genius can achieve with seemingly very little.
The opening, the riff, the tune (Maccas "talking" voice) the harmony all brilliant.

 

[symbolipoint]

Some exhibitions and discussions through YouTube videos on Paperback Writer (piece from the Beatles):
That the song is mostly with chord G major and a little bit to chord C; and some voices without instrumentation, not sure what that chord is.

 

[BWV]

Pop music tends to just loop a few chords, Jazz (at least through bebop) and Classical use the same basic functional harmony, where in any given key there are three chord functions: tonic, dominant and sub/pre dominant. Any beginning theory book will go into this. The basis of western harmony is counterpoint and in classical music you cannot really separate them - there are rules for how voices move relative to one another (i.e. no parallel 5ths or octaves, resolutions of dissonances etc)

 

[pinball1970]

Pop music tends to just loop a few chords, Jazz (at least through bebop) and Classical use the same basic functional harmony, where in any given key there are three chord functions: tonic, dominant and sub/pre dominant. Any beginning theory book will go into this. The basis of western harmony is counterpoint and in classical music you cannot really separate them - there are rules for how voices move relative to one another (i.e. no parallel 5ths or octaves, resolutions of dissonances etc)

Four chords can get you a long way in pop music.

 

[Hornbein]

Pop music tends to just loop a few chords,

It depends on the audience. Today's Japanese pop music has many more chords than the USA version. I keep track of this. The recordholder so far is Black Rock Shooter with 14 distinct major and minor chords. If you count variations like sevenths then Black Rock Shooter has 32(!) chords.

It's also worth noting that USA pop music of the past had many more chords than today's. Mainstream jazz is based on the USA's pop music of the past so today's mainstream jazz in the USA is a classical (based on the past) form. As they say,

The jazz band plays a thousand chords for three people. The rock band plays three chords for a thousand people.

The Beatles were transitional. I Want To Hold Your Hand has seven chords. You won't often find that today.

Jazz (at least through bebop) and Classical use the same basic functional harmony, where in any given key there are three chord functions: tonic, dominant and sub/pre dominant.

I'm a jazz musician and say this doesn't apply to that genre. There are three mainstream chord sequences : blues, going around the cycle of fifths, and I Got Rhythm changes. If you know those you can play maybe 90% of jazz standards. Numbers like Giant Steps that deviate from these are unfamiliar and hence challenging to improvise over. I have never bothered to learn those.

 

[BWV]

It depends on the audience. Today's Japanese pop music has many more chords than the USA version. I keep track of this. The recordholder so far is Black Rock Shooter with 14 distinct major and minor chords. If you count variations like sevenths then Black Rock Shooter has 32(!) chords.

It's also worth noting that USA pop music of the past had many more chords than today's. Mainstream jazz is based on the USA's pop music of the past so today's mainstream jazz in the USA is a classical (based on the past) form. As they say,



The Beatles were transitional. I Want To Hold Your Hand has seven chords. You won't often find that today.



I'm a jazz musician and say this doesn't apply to that genre. There are three mainstream chord sequences : blues, going around the cycle of fifths, and I Got Rhythm changes. If you know those you can play maybe 90% of jazz standards. Numbers like Giant Steps that deviate from these are unfamiliar and hence challenging to improvise over. I have never bothered to learn those.

ii-V-I(i) is standard functional harmony (predominant-dominant-tonic) and is a foundation of both jazz and classical. Rhythm Changes is I-V/ii-ii-V etc, Giant Steps is ii-V-I around a cycle of thirds.

 

[Hornbein]

ii-V-I(i) is standard functional harmony (predominant-dominant-tonic) and is a foundation of both jazz and classical. Rhythm Changes is I-V/ii-ii-V etc, Giant Steps is ii-V-I around a cycle of thirds.

It's called a "two-five" but it can be IV- VI - II and so forth. That is, you go up a fourth and down a fifth but it doesn't have to end on the tonic. So IV - VI - II - V - I is called a sequence of two "two-fives" even though it isn't really. You are going around the cycle of fifths. Rhythm changes are basically I - VI - II - V with the chorus starting dramatically with the major III.

 

[BWV]

It's called a "two-five" but it can be IV- VI - II and so forth. That is, you go up a fourth and down a fifth but it doesn't have to end on the tonic. So IV - VI - II - V - I is called a sequence of two "two-fives" even though it isn't really. You are going around the cycle of fifths. Rhythm changes are basically I - VI - II - V with the chorus starting dramatically with the major III.

The chorus is a pattern widely used in 18th and 19th century music called a fonte (V/ii-ii-V-I in the dominant key)

 

[sandy stone]

Four chords can get you a long way in pop music.

Yes, practically every song from the late 50's/early 60's was I-vi-IV-V, or sometimes a blues progression. I credit the Beatles for shaking things up, not that they didn't cover a lot of 3-chord songs.

 

[DennisN]

A friend just sent me this interesting page with a statistical study of chords and progressions in 680 000 songs (!). Among the things found was that chord types vary depending upon genre. Other various statistics are provided as well.

I didn’t really have a hypothesis to test with the Chordonomicon dataset, though. [...]
There had to be something interesting among 680,000 chord progressions. And there was.

I Analyzed Chord Progressions in 680k Songs (Can’t Get Much Higher)
https://www.cantgetmuchhigher.com/p/i-analyzed-chord-progressions-in

An example image from the article: