Metal inside a microwave oven -> ice?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phenomenon of water freezing inside a microwave oven, specifically when using a metal pan. Participants explore the implications of this occurrence in relation to thermodynamics, phase transitions, and the behavior of water under microwave radiation.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant recounts an experience where water in a tin pan inside a microwave turned to ice, questioning how this could happen.
  • Another participant expresses skepticism, asserting that the event contradicts the second law of thermodynamics.
  • Some participants propose that an artificial low-entropy system can allow another system to decrease entropy, similar to how a refrigerator works.
  • There is mention of supercooling, where pure water can remain liquid below freezing until disturbed, which may relate to the phenomenon described.
  • Concerns are raised about the plausibility of freezing water in a microwave, with one participant noting the lack of documented evidence or mechanisms for such an effect.
  • Several participants express uncertainty about the atomic-level processes involved in phase transitions and microwave interactions with water.
  • One participant admits to limited knowledge about atomic behavior but remains skeptical about the feasibility of the described event.
  • There are references to other unusual phenomena, such as reported cooling by mystics, as a point of comparison.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach a consensus. There are competing views regarding the validity of the original claim about freezing water in a microwave, with some expressing belief in the possibility while others remain doubtful and reference thermodynamic principles.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the processes involved and the limitations of their understanding regarding phase transitions and microwave interactions. There is a recognition that the phenomenon, if true, lacks a clear scientific explanation.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in thermodynamics, phase transitions, and the effects of microwave radiation on materials may find this discussion relevant.

imiyakawa
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Metal inside a microwave oven --> ice?

When I was younger, I placed water inside a tin pan and placed it inside a microwave. I tuned it on, sparks went everywhere and I quickly turned it off. I took the pan out and it was solid ice. How?

A while ago I read an article in New Scientist that said they could create ice by zapping it with electricity or something (i forget).
 
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imiyakawa said:
When I was younger, I placed water inside a tin pan and placed it inside a microwave. I tuned it on, sparks went everywhere and I quickly turned it off. I took the pan out and it was solid ice. How?

A while ago I read an article in New Scientist that said they could create ice by zapping it with electricity or something (i forget).

WHAT? I don't believe this...I firmly stand behind the second law of thermodynamics.
 


Sorry to say, it happened. Who said the process breached the 2nd law of thermodynamics? An artificial low-entropy system can endear another system to decrease entropy. Just like a fridge can decrease the entropy of water into ice. Nobody said anything was breaching the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Just because we don't understand the process between the microwave oven creating ice doesn't mean it was a statistical fluke that is bound to happen every so often in a stretch of infinite (high-entropy transforming into low-entropy, eggs unsplattering).
 


Where did the water come from? Water that is free of impurities can be supercooled (below freezing) without solidifying. But when it is agitated it turns to ice.
 


The tap, Room temperature.
Perhaps understand of this requires a deep comprehension of what happens on the atomic level during a phase transition.
 


imiyakawa said:
Sorry to say, it happened. Who said the process breached the 2nd law of thermodynamics? An artificial low-entropy system can endear another system to decrease entropy. Just like a fridge can decrease the entropy of water into ice. Nobody said anything was breaching the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
Just because we don't understand the process between the microwave oven creating ice doesn't mean it was a statistical fluke that is bound to happen every so often in a stretch of infinite (high-entropy transforming into low-entropy, eggs unsplattering).

ok... I admit of course I know little about atomic level behaviour in phase transitions, though it seems still very unlikely, and unreasonable; you're sending microwave radiation centered around the resonating frequency of a water molecule (ideally) and you tell me that by sending energy inside the system composed of a tin pan and water you get a block of frozen water? I insist this doesn't sound possible... though of course I might be wrong, if I had a scrap microwave I would have tried to reproduce it, though I can't think of a reason behind that, so that to me this seems just a breaching of the second law, and you know, a Carnot fridge is not sening more energy in the system it is supposed to be cooling.
 


True, it is extremely strange, assuming I'm not lying of course. And I agree, it doesn't seem logical. Nothing in google even makes a mention of this.
 


imiyakawa said:
True, it is extremely strange, assuming I'm not lying of course. And I agree, it doesn't seem logical. Nothing in google even makes a mention of this.

of course I assume you're not lying and you don't experiment with this stuff under hallucinogens, the fact keeps being puzzling...
 


platipo said:
ok... I admit of course I know little about atomic level behaviour in phase transitions, though it seems still very unlikely, and unreasonable; you're sending microwave radiation centered around the resonating frequency of a water molecule (ideally) and you tell me that by sending energy inside the system composed of a tin pan and water you get a block of frozen water? I insist this doesn't sound possible... though of course I might be wrong, if I had a scrap microwave I would have tried to reproduce it, though I can't think of a reason behind that, so that to me this seems just a breaching of the second law, and you know, a Carnot fridge is not sening more energy in the system it is supposed to be cooling.

I've never seen such action (and I've zapped quite a few things in microwave ovens...old CD ROMs being one of the better ones to try and they don't come out frozen!). Obviously nobody can say it's "impossible" since we don't have knowledge of all the weird actions in the universe. But so far as I know there are no known mechanisms for such an effect. The only thing that might come close to such an action would be the reported cooling of rooms by gurus and mystics. The considerable energy being extracted from a large area and presumably transported to some location is similar to your pan of water having heat extracted from it and ending up frozen. You are the only person I've ever heard of who claims to have seen such a thing in a microwave oven.
 

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