Moments and forces in different frames of reference

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of forces and moments in different frames of reference, specifically in the context of aerodynamic forces acting on a fuselage. Participants explore the implications of these calculations for a CFD analysis and a Simulink model, focusing on the transition from one frame of reference to the center of gravity frame.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to calculate moments in the center of gravity frame of reference, noting that forces are straightforward but moments are problematic.
  • Another participant suggests looking for a formula related to the moment of inertia with respect to a parallel axis, although this may not directly address the aerodynamic forces in question.
  • Several participants clarify that the discussion is specifically about aerodynamic forces, which are presented as coefficients for torque in each axis.
  • A participant expresses confusion about the distinction between aerodynamic forces and other forces, asserting that they are treated similarly in 6-degree of freedom equations of motion.
  • One participant describes the need to validate a Simulink model that provides forces and moments based on speed, angle of attack, and angle of sideslip, emphasizing that the model only considers the fuselage without rotors or appendages.
  • Another participant points out that the forces are not in the form of coefficients but rather specific values at different angles of attack.
  • There is a discussion about the possibility of moving the thread to a more appropriate sub-forum, with mixed opinions on whether the current forum is suitable.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the treatment of aerodynamic forces compared to other forces, with some asserting they are similar while others suggest they require different considerations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to calculating moments in the desired frame of reference.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the forces and moments, particularly in relation to the specific frame of reference and the nature of the aerodynamic forces being discussed. The conversation reflects a dependence on definitions and the context of the problem being addressed.

Marco9518
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Good morning!
I know this may sound a little odd, because there is a theorem regarding it, but i have this question.
Basically, a CFD analysis gives me the value of the forces and the moments, as a function of fuselage's orientation, in a particular frame of reference.
How can i calculate the values in the C.G. frame of reference? Forces have no problem, but moments do.
 
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Are you looking for the formula for calculating the moment of inertia with respect to a parallel axis? This is a reference.
 
FactChecker said:
Are you looking for the formula for calculating the moment of inertia with respect to a parallel axis? This is a reference.
Thanks, but I was talking about aerodynamic forces.
 
@Marco9518 -- Is there a different sub-forum where we can move this to where it would be a better fit? Maybe the Aerospace forum or ME forum? Or do you think this General Math forum is still best?
 
Marco9518 said:
Thanks, but I was talking about aerodynamic forces.
Aerodynamic forces are in the form of coefficients for the torque in each axis (after proper multiplication by factors). The plane reacts like anything else with the same forces and moments of inertia.
 
FactChecker said:
Are you looking for the formula for calculating the moment of inertia with respect to a parallel axis? This is a reference.
Thanks, but I was talking about aerodynamic forces
berkeman said:
@Marco9518 -- Is there a different sub-forum where we can move this to where it would be a better fit? Maybe the Aerospace forum or ME forum? Or do you think this General Math forum is still best?
Hi! i thought about that! I just think that, being this a mathematical/physical problem, would be more helpful to post it here. Do you think it is possible to have it in both sections?
 
Marco9518 said:
Thanks, but I was talking about aerodynamic forces
I don't understand. What is it about aerodynamic forces that you think are different from other forces? In my experience, they are treated the same. When you use 6-degree of freedom equations of motion, the aerodynamic forces and moments are combined with other forces like those from the propulsion, gear, gun, gravity, etc.
 
FactChecker said:
I don't understand. What is it about aerodynamic forces that you think are different from other forces? In my experience, they are treated the same. When you use 6-degree of freedom equations of motion, the aerodynamic forces and moments are combined with other forces like those from the propulsion, gear, gun, gravity, etc.
So, basically i need to validate a simulink model that gives me forces and moment acting on the fuselage of an helicopter, given speed, angle of attack and angle of sideslip. There are no rotors, no appendices, nothing but the fuselage. The model needs some coefficients. The CFD analisys gives me forces and moment in a particular frame of references. I need to calculate the same forces and moments in another frame of reference which has its reference pole in the center of gravity.
 
FactChecker said:
Aerodynamic forces are in the form of coefficients for the torque in each axis (after proper multiplication by factors). The plane reacts like anything else with the same forces and moments of inertia.
This forces are not in form of coefficient. What i have is for example: at 0 deg of angle of attack the Fx is 5N, at 15 deg is 20N and so on.
 
  • #10
Marco9518 said:
Do you think it is possible to have it in both sections?
No, sorry.
 
  • #11
Marco9518 said:
This forces are not in form of coefficient. What i have is for example: at 0 deg of angle of attack the Fx is 5N, at 15 deg is 20N and so on.
That just removes a slight complication. A force is a force is a force. The only thing that changes is the measurement of the reaction to the force when a different axis of rotation is used. That changes the moment of inertia as described in the link I referenced in post #2.
 

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