High School More Experimental Evidence for MOND

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A recent study on the orbital motions of wide binary stars suggests that standard gravity fails at low accelerations, supporting the modified theory of gravity known as MOND. This challenges existing dark matter theories and has significant implications for astrophysics and cosmology. However, the findings are contested, with inconsistent results from various observations of wide binaries, leading to calls for more rigorous data collection. Critics argue that methodological issues, such as the influence of neighboring stars and the historical context of binary systems, complicate the interpretation of results. The ongoing debate emphasizes the need for consensus among experts to determine the validity of MOND versus traditional gravitational theories.
  • #61
Since this is still a B-level thread, I dare to make a comment as a naive layman.

Firstly, MOND describes what is and makes predictions of what we measure. This is no valid argument in my mind. It is constructed to do exactly this. It is a minimal requirement. These models are accordingly fine-tuned. What lacks in my opinion is a good reason why nature should follow these tunings.

Secondly, the discussion reminds me of ether. Some medium that tells the central mass about the amount of mass far away in order to adjust its gravitation. Maybe I got it wrong, but I had the impression from reading the posts here, that it makes a difference whether two Jupiters surround each other very far away or a Jupiter and a tiny moon would. Or is all this just a different (from ##r^{-2}##) potential?
 
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  • #62
Vanadium 50 said:
This is why I said "may not even be a field theory" - it is not clear that one can come up with a local function that correctly superposes fields from multiple distinct sources.
It wasn't clear at first, until TeVeS and AQUAL appeared. Nowadays, progress has been made with Einstein-Aether theories, BIMOND and perhaps even with just a slight modification in quantum field theory Deur's approach. It needs to be checked and recalculated by others and reformulated so clarity increases.
 
  • #63
@fresh_42 I address your second point in post #18.

Your first point overstates (or maybe understates) the case. If every (rotationally supported) galaxy had its own a0, one could say "you got out what you put in - big whoop." But every galaxy has the same a0 - i.e. you can look at one galaxy and now you know the rotation curves of not just that galaxy, but all of them. In ΛCDM, every galaxy should be different - and observationally, that is not what we see.

Could there be an astrophysical explanation? I think that is likely. However, the battle lines have been drawn - you have people saying "gravity must be modified!" and others saying "the universality of a0 tells us nothing! I won't even look at it!" IMHO, neither path is the correct one.
 
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  • #64
fresh_42 said:
Firstly, MOND describes what is and makes predictions of what we measure. This is no valid argument in my mind. It is constructed to do exactly this. It is a minimal requirement. These models are accordingly fine-tuned. What lacks in my opinion is a good reason why nature should follow these tunings.
It was constructed for explaining galaxy rotation curves, not the baryonic TF-relation or velocity dispersions. But yes, a FUNDAMOND theory would be great for explaining why nature follows these tunings.
 
  • #65
Vanadium 50 said:
it is not clear that one can come up with a local function that correctly superposes fields from multiple distinct sources
Sure you can, just add the potentials linearly and take the gradient of the total potential. That is what I understood was being done in the "modified gravity" version described earlier. My question is, if that's what is being done, there should not be any such thing as an "External Field Effect", nor should it make any difference whether we use, say, coordinates centered on the center of mass of a wide binary or coordinates centered on the center of mass of the Milky Way. But other posts in this thread have talked about an EFE and have at least implied that it does make a difference which coordinates we use. That's why I am confused about what MOND actually says.
 
  • #66
PeterDonis said:
just add the potentials linearly
But they don't add. That's the M in MOND and indeed, the whole point.

It may - or may not - be possible to combine them, using some other function. Since the interpolation function suggested by Milgrom is non-analytic, it would be best if it were a different, but similar function. (e.g. erf or tanh instead of a theta function)
 
  • #67
Vanadium 50 said:
But they don't add
The last paragraph of @strangerep's post #43 says they do. It says compute the total conventional (i.e., Newtonian) field and then apply an interpolation function to it. That means adding the potentials linearly just like in Newtonian gravity, taking the gradient of the total (since that's the Newtonian field), and then applying an interpolation function.

At this point I'm going to bow out of this conversation because I can't get a clear explanation of exactly how MOND works. I'll just have to take the time to read the papers when I get a chance.
 
  • #68
This is exactly the problem with composite objects.
 
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  • #70
Vanadium 50 said:
Suppose I have a mass m at a distance r such that the Newtonian acceleration would be a0/10. In MOND, its acceleration would be a0.
Huh? How do you figure that? :oldconfused:
 
  • #71
PeterDonis said:
The last paragraph of @strangerep's post #43 says [potentials add). It says compute the total conventional (i.e., Newtonian) field and then apply an interpolation function to it. That means adding the potentials linearly just like in Newtonian gravity, taking the gradient of the total (since that's the Newtonian field), and then applying an interpolation function.
Take care to keep track of the context. I was talking about a ##\nu(y)## (force-side) interpolation function, whereas Vanadium seems to be using a ##\mu(x)## (inertia-side) interpolation function. The problems involving composite objects that Vanadium alludes to are a good reason why force-side interpolation functions are to be preferred (imho).

PeterDonis said:
I'll just have to take the time to read the [MOND] papers when I get a chance.
Yes, that's always a good idea. o0) :smile:

Indeed I wish more referees of journal papers would actually "read the papers" (properly).

Anyway, I'll try to write up a more coherent presentation of the MOND tenets and the various ways of implementing them in the next few days, since there are sooooo many misconceptions about these 2 things and the distinctions between them -- including fresh42's misconceptions that (a) MOND doesn't predict anything (it does), and (b) that MOND is based on a length scale (it's not -- MOND is based on an acceleration scale).
 
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  • #72
strangerep said:
Huh? How do you figure that? :oldconfused:
Yes it's not that simple but the idea (you can't just add accelerations) is clear.

The source problem is, I think, reading ohwilleke's statement that "MOND has the effect of increasing the acceleration towards ##a_0##" as "... to ##a_0##".
 
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  • #73
I goofed - it's a2/a0 and not a0. However, the point is the same - it's not linear.
 
  • #74
jedishrfu said:
TL;DR Summary: SciTech Daily a recent paper on the orbital motion of wide binary stars shows deviations in gravity measurements that differ from either Newton or Einstein and may support MOND

https://scitechdaily.com/conclusive...heories-in-low-acceleration/?expand_article=1

A study on the orbital motions of wide binaries has uncovered evidence that standard gravity breaks down at low accelerations. This discovery aligns with a modified theory called MOND and challenges current concepts of dark matter. The implications for astrophysics, physics, and cosmology are profound, and the results have been acknowledged as a significant discovery by experts in the field.
I have read many articles in the past years that support MOND in determining gravitational interactions like you are pointing out. I believe in the next few years with more gravitational satellites coming on-line many Astrophysicists will demand a change to this system, permanently leaving Einstein's and Newton's theories out in left field.
 
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  • #75
fresh_42 said:
Since this is still a B-level thread, I dare to make a comment as a naive layman.

Firstly, MOND describes what is and makes predictions of what we measure. This is no valid argument in my mind. It is constructed to do exactly this. It is a minimal requirement. These models are accordingly fine-tuned. What lacks in my opinion is a good reason why nature should follow these tunings.

Secondly, the discussion reminds me of ether. Some medium that tells the central mass about the amount of mass far away in order to adjust its gravitation. Maybe I got it wrong, but I had the impression from reading the posts here, that it makes a difference whether two Jupiters surround each other very far away or a Jupiter and a tiny moon would. Or is all this just a different (from ##r^{-2}##) potential?
There is an aether variant of MOND which is discussed at Scholarpedia.
 
  • #76
skynr13 said:
I have read many articles in the past years that support MOND in determining gravitational interactions like you are pointing out. I believe in the next few years with more gravitational satellites coming on-line many Astrophysicists will demand a change to this system, permanently leaving Einstein's and Newton's theories out in left field.
There are indeed a lot of satellites coming on line (of all types) that have resulted in an absolute deluge of new data.

Gravitational wave satellites aren't particular important to the consideration of MOND and most other gravity modification theories. But, other telescopes which allow for more precise measures of the movement star within galaxy, galaxies, and galaxy clusters are absolutely critical for this effort and will help determine which theory is correct.

Newtonian gravity has been superseded by General Relativity (GR), but remains an excellent approximation of GR in many circumstances.

MOND proponents don't claim that GR or something very close to it is not the correct theory in strong gravitational fields, or that GR effects like gravitational lensing aren't correct. They simply claim that in circumstances involving weak gravitational fields where astronomers usually use a Newtonian approximation of GR, that MOND is a better description of reality.
 
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  • #77
PeterDonis said:
Sure you can, just add the potentials linearly and take the gradient of the total potential. That is what I understood was being done in the "modified gravity" version described earlier. My question is, if that's what is being done, there should not be any such thing as an "External Field Effect", nor should it make any difference whether we use, say, coordinates centered on the center of mass of a wide binary or coordinates centered on the center of mass of the Milky Way. But other posts in this thread have talked about an EFE and have at least implied that it does make a difference which coordinates we use. That's why I am confused about what MOND actually says.
The EFE is absolute a critical effect in MOND. For example, it is critical to predicting when a satellite galaxy will be a "no dark matter" galaxy, and when it will not be.

The EFE is not a function of coordinate systems. It is, however, a function of what the distribution of mass in the vicinity of a seemingly free falling system of masses bound by gravity is. For example, in a common MOND fact pattern, a low mass density diffuse galaxy behaves very different near another big massive galaxy than it does in isolation in the middle of a large void.
 
  • #78
Vanadium 50 said:
Could there be an astrophysical explanation? I think that is likely. However, the battle lines have been drawn - you have people saying "gravity must be modified!" and others saying "the universality of a0 tells us nothing! I won't even look at it!" IMHO, neither path is the correct one.
This is indeed a key point. Even if the radial acceleration relation isn't caused by modified gravity, it is such a pervasive phenomena that the universe so tightly follows that if you have a dark matter particle explanation for dark matter phenomena, your dark matter particle explanation needs to replicate this observation about how matter in the universe behaves in what appears to be systems bound only by gravity.
 
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  • #80
skynr13 said:
many Astrophysicists will demand a change to this system, permanently leaving Einstein's and Newton's theories out in left field
That outcome isn’t even on the table for MOND.

First, for one theory to displace another it must be more general. MOND is not. MOND does not predict gravitational time dilation, precession of Mercury, gravitational lensing, frame dragging, gravitational waves, the CMB, etc. So MOND simply cannot replace GR, even in principle.

Second, suppose a new theory is more general, agrees with existing theories in all extant experimental domains, suggests new experimental domains, and is subsequently experimentally validated in those new domains. Even then the old theory is still used. The old theory remains valid in all of the experimental domains in which it was validated. So even if MOND could replace GR in principle, it wouldn’t in practice.
 
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  • #81
Dale said:
MOND does not predict gravitational time dilation, precession of Mercury, gravitational lensing, frame dragging, gravitational waves, the CMB, etc. So MOND simply cannot replace GR, even in principle.
I think that's a little bit unfair, as ΛCDM doesn't predict these things either,

If you say "GR does not have MOND as its Newtonian limit", everyone would agree with you. It's in the name. But there are at least three logical possibilities other than "MOND is just wrong"

1. The correct theory of gravity has GR as its high acceleration limit and MOND as its low acceleration limit.
2. GR is the correct theory of gravity, but inertia behaves differently at low accelerations.
3. There is a (very weird) 5th force that when you add it to GR at low accelerations you get MOND.

You might not like these possibilities - I sure don't - but they are there.
 
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  • #82
Vanadium 50 said:
I think that's a little bit unfair, as ΛCDM doesn't predict these things either,
I agree that is unfair which is why I didn’t make that claim. Nor was that the claim I was responding to. So it is a little bit unfair to pretend that my claim was a little bit unfair.
 
  • #83
In that case, I apologize.
 
  • #84
Dale said:
So it is a little bit unfair to pretend that my claim was a little bit unfair.
I'm getting dizzy... o0)
 
  • #85
PeterDonis said:
I'll just have to take the time to read the papers when I get a chance.
Now I'm just a layman so your needs might be different, but I found the following article to have a nice review of the MOND theory. YMMV.

https://doi.org/10.3390/sym14071331 (open access)

From galactic bars to the Hubble tension: weighing up the astrophysical evidence for Milgromian gravity​

Astronomical observations reveal a major deficiency in our understanding of physics—the detectable mass is insufficient to explain the observed motions in a huge variety of systems given our current understanding of gravity, Einstein’s General theory of Relativity (GR). This missing gravity problem may indicate a breakdown of GR at low accelerations, as postulated by Milgromian dynamics (MOND). We review the MOND theory and its consequences, including in a cosmological context where we advocate a hybrid approach involving light sterile neutrinos to address MOND’s cluster-scale issues. We then test the novel predictions of MOND using evidence from galaxies, galaxy groups, galaxy clusters, and the large-scale structure of the universe. We also consider whether the standard cosmological paradigm (ΛCDM) can explain the observations and review several previously published highly significant falsifications of it. Our overall assessment considers both the extent to which the data agree with each theory and how much flexibility each has when accommodating the data, with the gold standard being a clear a priori prediction not informed by the data in question. Our conclusion is that MOND is favoured by a wealth of data across a huge range of astrophysical scales, ranging from the kpc scales of galactic bars to the Gpc scale of the local supervoid and the Hubble tension, which is alleviated in MOND through enhanced cosmic variance. We also consider several future tests, mostly at scales much smaller than galaxies.
 
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  • #86
From M. Milgrom, Mon. Not. R. Astron. Soc. 437, 2531 (2014). MOND laws of galactic dynamics preprint (https://arxiv.org/pdf/1212.2568.pdf) pages 16-19:

"4.6.The external-field effect

Unlike ND, MOND is nonlinear even in the NR regime. It generally does not satisfy the strong equivalent principle; so effects of an overall acceleration on the internal dynamics of a system are generically expected. To be able to say what constraints the basic tenets impose on such effects I have to confine myself here to theories whereby only the instantaneous value of the external acceleration matters. This excludes from the discussion a large class of MI theories that are time nonlocal (Milgrom 1994). In these, the full(external)trajectory of the system enters, which complicates the discussion. Some of the possible consequences of such nonlocality are discussed briefly in Milgrom(2011),but what follows here does not apply to such theories.

Consider then a system of mass m(‘system m’), and extent r, that is falling in the field of a mother system with acceleration whose instantaneous value is g0. Assume that the theory and conditions are such that, to a good enough approximation, all the information about the mother system enters the dynamics within m only through g0. One can then write

a=a(m,r,a0,G,g0 ,n0 ,α), (15)

where a stands for the internal acceleration runs of elements of m, namely the full acceleration in the field of the mother system minus g0 (suppressing the dependence on position, time, and particle index). It is written as a function of all the available dimensioned independent parameters, as well as of n0 ,the unit vector in the direction of g0, and of α, which stands for the many dimensionless parameters that characterize the configuration, such as all the mass ratios, and all the geometrical parameters(angles, ratios of all distances tor, etc.). Here I am only interested in scaling laws of the dimensioned parameters–for example, in how |a| depends on the dimensioned system attributes–so I shall suppress the dependence on n0 and α. Since a/g0 is dimensionless, it can depend only on dimensionless quantities; so we can write, most generally

a=g0 F∗(η,θ),η≡mG r2g0 ∼gN g0 ,θ≡g0 a0 . (16)

When g0≪|a|, its effects can be neglected. So here I shall be interested in the opposite case, of external-acceleration dominance,g0≫|a|.35 The above choice of dimensionless variables is useful for this case. Clearly, F∗(0,θ)=0. So we are interested in the behaviour of F∗ to lowest order in η. We shall see below that external-field dominance requires η≪1 when θ≳1, and the SI condition η≪θ when θ≲1(in which case the whole problem is in the DML; η and θ both scale likeλ−1 underscaling); so we can write this condition generally as η≪min(1,θ).

We do not know that a MOND theory is necessarily expandable in powers of η near η=0. But assuming that it does, I write

a≈g0ηqf(θ),η≪min(1,θ). (17)

(I assume that q does not depend on θ; see below.)

To constrain q and f(θ) I now employ the basic tenets of MOND. The limit a0→0, namely whena0≪|a|≪g0, is strongly Newtonian for all accelerations, and is within the validity domain of eq.(17). For this region, g0 anda0 have to disappear from expression(17). This implies that q=1, and that|f(θ≫1)|∼1, such that(mG/r2)f(∞) is the internal Newtonian acceleration.

It is difficult to make general statements about the intermediate case where the two accelerations are of the same order field within m. This means that the internal dynamics is Newtonian for any value of gN when θ≫1; i.e.,also wheng N≪a0. In other words: whenever the external field is highly Newtonian and dominates over the internal field, the latter is necessarily Newtonian. This result holds also when q depends on θ, because then we still must have q(θ→∞)→1.

More generally, in as much as q=1 for all θ, we can write eq.(17)in its full validity domain (external-field dominance) as

a=mG r2 f(θ). (18)

This means that when the external field is dominant, the internal dynamics is always quasiNewtonian, in the sense that the accelerations scale as mG/r2, only with an enhanced effective constant Geff∼G|f(θ)|, and with not-quite-Newtonian geometrical aspects that stem from the fact that f has different geometric properties than f(∞): for example, f depends on the direction relative to n0 ,and on the theory at hand, while f(∞) does not.

When θ≪1 the whole system is in the DML, where the basic tenets dictate that eq.(18) becomes SI. Underscaling, θ scales like g0, namely θ→λ−1θ (since g0 is a DML acceleration of the mother system it scales as g0→λ−1g0). This means that f must become proportional to θ−1: f(θ≪1)≈θ−1¯f. We see then that f(θ) has the same asymptotic behaviours as 1/µ(θ), where µ is the interpolating function appearing in present MOND theories. If q does depend on θ, the EFE does not conform to the standard results.

For example, in the DML we could have 0<q(0)=1, in which case SI dictates f(θ≪1)≈θ−q(0)ˆf. Then a∼g0(gN a0/g2 0 )q(0)=g0(η/θ)q(0). We see that, as stated above, the condition for external-field dominance, a≪g0, whenθ<1, is indeed always η≪θ. For example, if q(0)=1/2, this gives the standard scaling of the MOND acceleration in isolated systems a∼(gN a0)1/2; i.e.,there is no EFE, except for effects in¯f(0). So the basic tenets lead to the standard EFEresults(indeed to an EFE) only if some additional analytic properties are assumed. The toy DML theory described by eq.(6), which satisfies scale invariance (but which does not combine with an appropriate Newtonian limit), does not lead to an EFE. The above analytic assumptions do hold in all the MOND formulations considered to date: e.g., in the original, pristine formulation in (Milgrom 1983),in the formulation of Bekenstein & Milgrom (1984), and in QUMOND(Milgrom 2010a). For example, in QUMOND, we can write schematically (ignoring the vectorial nature of the quantities involved)

a/g0 ∼ν[θµ(θ)+θη][µ(θ)+η]−1, (19)

where ν(y) is the QUMOND interpolating function, and µ(x) is such that ν[xµ(x)]µ(x)=1. We have µ(θ≪1)≈θ,µ(θ≫1)≈1; so we see explicitly why the condition η≪min(1,θ) is tantamount to a dominant external field. And, clearly the next to zeroth-order term is a/g0∼ η(1+ˆν)/µ(θ), where−1/2<ˆν<0 is the logarithmic derivative of ν.

In summary, the fact that an external field |g0|≫a0 renders the internal dynamics Newtonian, follows from only the basic tenets of MOND, provided that only the instantaneous external field enters the internal dynamics (not necessarily true in MI, time-nonlocal theories). This is relevant, for example, to experimental results in the laboratory and Solar system, and to the dynamics of star clusters near the sun. On the other hand, the specific form of the EFE when|g0|≪a0, even its very existence, is not strictly dictated by the basic tenets alone. Its basic features do follow under another plausible assumption, shared by all full-fledged theories considered to date: that the expansion power in eq.(17) does not depend on θ.

There is no EFE in the DM paradigm."
 
  • #87
Dale said:
That outcome isn’t even on the table for MOND.

First, for one theory to displace another it must be more general. MOND is not. MOND does not predict gravitational time dilation, precession of Mercury, gravitational lensing, frame dragging, gravitational waves, the CMB, etc. So MOND simply cannot replace GR, even in principle.

Second, suppose a new theory is more general, agrees with existing theories in all extant experimental domains, suggests new experimental domains, and is subsequently experimentally validated in those new domains. Even then the old theory is still used. The old theory remains valid in all of the experimental domains in which it was validated. So even if MOND could replace GR in principle, it wouldn’t in practice.
Another argument is that GR is validated at high precision with Pulsar timing (usually evaluated in terms of Postnewtonian parametrization). Is there some paper, discussing in how far this is compatible with MOND?
 
  • #88
Binary pulsars are at high acceleration, so they are in the GR limit, not the MOND limit.
 
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  • #89
One of the things that is either genius or annoying ("there's a fine line between clever and stupid") is that there is a neat separation between rotation curves and every other test of gravity.
 

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