Moving without the application of an external force

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The discussion centers around whether a person can move a shopping cart forward by jerking their body while seated inside it, without any external contact. One viewpoint argues that without external forces, the center of mass of the cart-person system cannot change, thus making forward motion impossible. Another perspective introduces the idea of friction and the deformation of surfaces, suggesting that small forces could allow for movement. The conversation also touches on related concepts like conservation of momentum and the dynamics of swinging on a swing, emphasizing that external forces play a crucial role in changing momentum. Ultimately, the participants debate the implications of Newton's laws in these scenarios.
  • #31
Here is my explanation of the swing problem. Let our system is the man only, without the swing. The only two external forces acting on the man are gravity and the pull of the string of the swing.

Think of what you do intuitively when you want to swing faster. You lower your body to as close to horizontal as possible when the swing is going towards the lowest point (assuming you are facing the lowest point) and again straighten it vertical when the swing passes the lowest point and is going up. You keep your body vertical for half a period till the swing returns to the original position and then you 'pump' again.

Considering the torques of the external forces around the pivot of the swing, only gravity has a torque. By laying horizontal when the swing is going towards its lowest point, you put your center of mass further from the vertical position of the swing increasing the shoulder of the gravity force around the pivot thus adding EXTRA torque of gravity in excess of the usual torque when your body is vertical. That extra torque creates the extra angular acceleration that swings you faster. After you pass the lowest point of the swinging you have to raise your body vertical, otherwise you will have a DEFICIENCY of gravity torque with respect to vertical body position.

That explains how gravity creates the extra angular acceleration. What creates the extra horizontal acceleration though? It can't be gravity since it is vertical. The only other external force is the tension in the string of the swing. What happens is that when gravity creates the extra angular acceleration, the extra speed of the swing requires extra centripetal acceleration provided by EXTRA tension in the string with respect to normally swinging without 'pumping'. That extra tension force projected on the horizontal axis creates the extra momentum in horizontal direction, the extra swing.

Where does the energy for extra swinging come from? Your muscles, say the abdominals and flexors, do work against gravity when you raise your body from horizontal to vertical at the lowest point of the swing. So the chemical energy of the muscles converts to potential energy when you raise your body vertical, which converts to kinetic energy of the swing when you lower down your body horizontal. Of course at the end some part of the chemical muscle energy turns into heat.
 
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  • #32
You will move but only momentarily

Hi iyerk0

My answer to your question is that: Yes the cart will move. But sadly, you are going to find yourself exactly where you started from after a second or so.

If you jerk your body in certain ways e.g. sitting on your feet and pushing the cart with them, the cart will move forwards. However, it will never be able to maintain its new position, because after you have pushed, Newton's law of reaction will push you backwards, and as soon as you touch the cart with your back, the force you were carrying with your backward motion will bring the cart back to its original place. However hard you push, you are going to come back to your original place.
One metre distance is too long mate. Only if you somehow slow down your body's velocity backwards ( you'll have to be a superman to do so ), the cart may have enough time to cover one metre. Atleast you will fulfil your dream of traveling one metre in a shopping cart, even if only for a short while ( that is, before your backward-moving body hits the cart. ):biggrin:

Bye
 
  • #33
Mr Virtual said:
Yes the cart will move. But sadly, you are going to find yourself exactly where you started from after a second or so.
This is not taking into account that cart has static rolling resistance (friction in axles, and deformation of the wheels). So the cart can remain motionless while the center of mass is moving as long as the rate of acceleration to establish the initial movement of center of mass doesn't generate enough impulse to overcome the static rolling resistance. Then a large amount of deceleration to stop the center of mass from moving will create enough impulse to start the cart moving, with dynamic rolling resistance coming into play to slow the cart down.

For example, imagine a compressed spring pushing a bowling ball across the bottom of the cart, the spring rate is low enough and/or rollinging resistance high enough that the cart doesn't move when the spring accelerates the bowling ball. However, when the bowling ball bounces off the other side of the cart, the impulse from the sudden deceleration would be enough to start the cart moving, where it would continue to move until it's dynamic rolling resistance stopped the cart. Add a human inside the cart to recompress the spring as the bowling ball returns, and the cart can be moved in steps as far as wanted.

Just a human in the cart moving slowly forwards and quickly backwards could generate the initial forward motion. It's then possible that if the turning reaction of the cart responds at slow enough rate, that a human could twist side to side to generate a torque force to propel the cart (a low dynamic rolling resistance would be required).
 
  • #35
iyerk0 said:
Now consider one example: Take a shopping cart and sit in it. Now jerk your body in any manner you require. The goal is to create a net motion forward. Can you sit in the cart and move it say 1 meter forward by giving the appropriate jerks? remember that you cannot push against the ground or a wall. Your arms and legs are totally inside the shopping cart and not touching any external surfaces.

My contention is that this is quite possible. My friend is equally convinced that it is impossible? Who is right ? (and why?)
For this problem i think we need to consider the ideal case (where there is no friction involved) and the real world case (where there is friction is involved).
I am quite convinced that if i take a walmart shopping cart moving my self forward by simply jerking my body (while not contacting any external surface) is quite do able. I have a theory for this, but i will wait for your answers so as not to bias you in any way.
Thanks again and i hope to get some illuminating answers.


Sure--IF the 'back' (of the back and forth jerking action of you in the cart in the 'friction involved' scenario) acceleration/movement toward one direction is sufficient and fast enough to overcome all (or some) friction of the wheels-axles and wheels-floor, AND the 'forth' action is slow enough that it DOESN'T overcome any (or much) of the friction. A similar/comparable case is a ratcheting wrench.
 
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  • #36
let this be clear the max movement possible for you is when u remain in the cart and at the same time walk on the cart floor. this will happen only because position of centre of mass is to be maintained in absence of external forces as per the law of conservation of momentum. so it is like this:you may move but nothing beyond a distance that will be lesser than the length of cart.

m.x = M.X

(where

m=your mass
M=cart mass
x = your moved distance
X= dist moved by cart

AND x,X < L

L=length of the cart
)

so you r right, you can move but not as much as you want to.

and pushing the insides of the cart will not help at all 'cause there are two opposite sides to balance any force you may apply.

i hope i cleared this matter.
 
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  • #37
The car can move more than that because it is NOT a closed system - it interacts with the floor and that interaction can have horizontal force component.

Cosider this more obvious example. Imagine your are sitting in a light chair, legs not touching floor. Can you and the chair move forward without touching the floor by 'jumping'. Almost everybody has done this at some poin in his/her life and we all know that yes you can move. Why the center of mass moves? Because the system of you+chair is not closed, it interracts with the floor and your are using the forces from the floor which respond to your jerks in your advantage.
Note: I tried it with my kitchen chair. I was unable to move it while sitting on it but then I stood up on it and pulled the chair from above I was able to move the whole system quite a lot.

Your derivation based on the center of mass not moving applies only to a system for which the total horizontal force from the environment is zero.

Another proof that the center of mass can move is that if you walk in the car carefully enough in one direction the cart won't move so the center of mass will move in your direction. That's because the forces holding the cart in place (ellastic forces and friction forces with floor) have a threshold and as long as the force from your feet remains below that threshold the car won't move. When you are at the store, in order to make the cart start moving, you have to push ABOVE that threshould.
 
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  • #38
whether there is friction or not isn't important.. you want to know if you can apply a force forward moving the shopping cart, the magnitude of the force to overcome friction isn't important.. unless you tell us the strength of the person in the cart, the coefficient of friction and the weight of the person in the cart.
 
  • #39
apope said:
whether there is friction or not isn't important.. you want to know if you can apply a force forward moving the shopping cart, the magnitude of the force to overcome friction isn't important..
unless you tell us the strength of the person in the cart, the coefficient of friction and the weight of the person in the cart.

hmmmmm...

well, yeah--and maybe the cart is 40 feet long, and maybe the cart has no wheels (or just three wheels), and maybe its a baby inside, and maybe your arms and legs are tied up, and maybe the cart is going uphill, and maybe there's a black hole up ahead, and maybe the cart is on the moon, and maybe...
 
  • #40
rewebster said:
hmmmmm...

well, yeah--and maybe the cart is 40 feet long, and maybe the cart has no wheels (or just three wheels), and maybe its a baby inside, and maybe your arms and legs are tied up, and maybe the cart is going uphill, and maybe there's a black hole up ahead, and maybe the cart is on the moon, and maybe...

..what about that cart with one jammed wheel?...the one that constantly tries to make a left while simultaneously making a loud farting noise...
 
  • #41
Saladsamurai said:
..what about that cart with one jammed wheel?...the one that constantly tries to make a left while simultaneously making a loud farting noise...

yeah!----


Actually, there's a 'term' (which doesn't come to mind right now) NOT to assign/bring in more variables to a situation than what one can assume from the amount of information 'given' to try to resolve a situation. The term is similar to being 'over speculative' both/either in science and/or philosophy, but more specific to assumptions.
 
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  • #42
rewebster said:
yeah!----


Actually, there's a 'term' (which doesn't come to mind right now) NOT to assign/bring in more variables to a situation than what one can assume from the amount of information 'given' to try to resolve a situation. The term is similar to being 'over speculative' both/either in science and/or philosophy, but more specific to assumptions.

-------------------------------

The term (that I still can't place) is something similar to 'significant figures' in math, but relates to not bringing in extra parameters that weren't 'suggested/implied/inferred/??' to ANY more parameters that in the original problem. what is THAT term?:rolleyes::mad::cry:



Any help from the 'parameter' gallery?:redface:
 

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