MSD for Non-Ideal Gas: Derivation & Analysis

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation and analysis of the Maxwell Speed Distribution for non-ideal gases. Participants explore the applicability of the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution in various phases of matter, including gases, solids, and liquids, while examining the differences between these distributions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a derivation of the Maxwell Speed Distribution for non-ideal gases, using the Van der Waals equation and questioning its validity for modeling non-ideal gases.
  • Another participant asserts that the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution is general and applies to any classical system at thermal equilibrium, including solids and liquids.
  • A participant clarifies the distinction between the Maxwell Speed Distribution and the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution, noting that the latter is typically associated with ideal gases.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the applicability of the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution to solids and liquids, suggesting that it may depend on the uncoupling of canonical position and momenta.
  • There is a mention of conflicting sources regarding whether the Maxwell Speed Distribution and the Maxwell-Boltzmann Distribution are equivalent, with some suggesting that they could be related through scaling by the total amount of substance.
  • One participant references statistical mechanics to argue that the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution can apply regardless of phase, provided the system is treated classically and is thermally equilibrated.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the applicability of the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution to solids and liquids, with multiple competing views presented regarding its generality and the relationship between the two distributions.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of the distributions and the conditions under which they apply. Some assumptions about the nature of the gases and the interactions between particles remain unresolved.

Mandelbroth
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I've been thinking again. The formula for the Maxwell Speed Distribution for a non-ideal gas is \displaystyle f(v) = 4\pi \left(\frac{M}{2\pi RT}\right)^{\frac{3}{2}} v^2 e^{\frac{-Mv^2}{2RT}}.

My derivation follows as such:

\displaystyle f(v) = 4\pi \left(\frac{m}{2\pi nRT}\right)^{\frac{3}{2}} v^2 e^{\frac{-mv^2}{2nRT}}, where m is the mass of the gas and n is the number of moles.

\displaystyle f(v) = 4\pi \left(\frac{m}{2\pi P_{ideal}V_{ideal}}\right)^{\frac{3}{2}} v^2 e^{\frac{-mv^2}{2P_{ideal}V_{ideal}}}, by the ideal gas law.

\displaystyle f(v) = 4\pi \left(\frac{m}{2\pi (P + \frac{an^2}{V^2})(V-nb)}\right)^{\frac{3}{2}} v^2 e^{\frac{-mv^2}{2(P + \frac{an^2}{V^2})(V-nb)}}, through the Van der Waals equation.

Factoring, we get \displaystyle f(v) = 4\pi \left(\frac{mV^2}{2\pi (PV^3-nbPV^2+an^2V-abn^3)}\right)^{\frac{3}{2}} v^2 e^{\frac{-mv^2}{2(PV^3-nbPV^2+an^2V-abn^3)}}.

As ridiculous as it looks, it probably isn't ridiculous enough. Would this work for modeling a non-ideal gas?
 
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The maxwell Boltzmann distribution is actually very general. It applies to any classical system that is at thermal equilibrium. It even applies to solid and liquid phases.
 
Jorriss said:
The maxwell Boltzmann distribution is actually very general. It applies to any classical system that is at thermal equilibrium. It even applies to solid and liquid phases.

Maxwell Speed Distribution. Not the Maxwell-Boltzmann distribution. Apparently, they are two different distributions. The Maxwell-Boltzmann is given by \sqrt{\frac{2}{\pi}} \frac{x^2 e^{-x^2/(2a^2)}}{a^3}, where a is a scale parameter.

Even then, Maxwell-Boltzmann applies to gases with free-moving particles that do not interact and experience completely elastic collisions (id est, ideal gases). It doesn't apply to solids and liquids.
 
Mandelbroth said:
It doesn't apply to solids and liquids.
I'm fairly certain as long as the canonical position and momenta are uncoupled, it applies to solids and liquids. Do you know any statistical mechanics?
 
Jorriss said:
I'm fairly certain as long as the canonical position and momenta are uncoupled, it applies to solids and liquids. Do you know any statistical mechanics?
A bit. I would not, however, consider myself an expert at it.

Going back to its application to solids and liquids, a quick Google search yields multiple sources that are saying that it only applies to ideal gases. Then again, a couple of these sources are saying that the Maxwell Speed Distribution and the Maxwell-Boltzmann Distribution are the same, which may indicate that if you multiply the Maxwell-Boltzmann by the total amount of substance, there is some value of a such that they are equal.
 
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Mandelbroth said:
A bit. I would not, however, consider myself an expert at it.

Going back to its application to solids and liquids, a quick Google search yields multiple sources that are saying that it only applies to ideal gases. Then again, a couple of these sources are saying that the Maxwell Speed Distribution and the Maxwell-Boltzmann Distribution are the same, which I'm almost positive is wrong...
From statistical mechanics one has, P(p,q) = exp(-BH)/Q.

If momenta and position are uncoupled (ie H = g(p) + w(q) )then Q = QtransQconfigurational.

The marginal probability distribution for momenta is P(p,q) where you integrate out position. p(p) = exp(-Bg(p))/Qtrans.

So the maxwell Boltzmann distribution applies regardless of phase - as long as the system can be treated classically and obeys a Boltzmann distribution ie thermally equilibrated.
 
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