Multiplying vectors -- where does cos(theta) go?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of work done using vectors in the context of physics. Participants explore the relationship between force, displacement, and the angle between them, particularly focusing on the role of the cosine of the angle in the dot product and how it relates to the component form of vectors.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that work is calculated using the dot product of force and displacement vectors, represented as W = F · s.
  • Others clarify that the cosine of the angle between the vectors is implicit in the dot product calculation, even if not explicitly stated when using component forms.
  • A participant questions whether the magnitude of work should be expressed as F S cos(theta), indicating confusion about the relationship between the two forms of calculation.
  • Some participants explain that the unit vectors i, j, k are mutually orthogonal, leading to cos(theta) being zero for any i≠j terms.
  • There is a discussion about the angle between i and -i, with some asserting that it corresponds to cos(180°) = -1, while others argue that the relevant angle for the dot product remains zero degrees when considering the direction of the vectors.
  • Participants present different notations for vectors and discuss the advantages of using coordinate form versus component form for calculating work.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of angles in vector multiplication, particularly regarding the dot product and the implications of negative unit vectors. There is no consensus on the best approach to conceptualizing the relationship between the vectors and the angles involved.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the interpretation of angles and the application of the cosine function can vary depending on how the vectors are represented and understood, leading to potential confusion in calculations.

gracy
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For example if I have to find out work done.Force and displacement are given to be (2i^+3j^+4k^)and
(-i^-2j^) respectively.
till now i have been thinking that work done=Force multiplied by displacement cos theta but in my book in solution of the problem above work done is calculated by simply multiplying
(2i^+3j^+4k^)and
(-i^-2j^).
where did cos theta go?when vectors are given in terms of i^,j^, k^ we don't write costheta,that's how it works,right?if yes,reason? I know displacement cos theta implies component of displacement along force.
 
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That is not a simple multiplication. Its called dot product. Work is defined as:
$$W=\vec{F}\cdot\vec{s}$$

When force and displacement are given in vector forms, you can also find the angle between them by using$$\cos\theta=\frac{\vec{F}\cdot\vec{s}}{|F|.|s|}$$

You can read it here : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_product
 
Titan97 said:
That is not a simple multiplication. Its called dot product. Work is defined as:
W=F⃗ ⋅s⃗​
I know that!but should not magnitude of work done be F S COS theta
 
Its is.
$$W=|F|.|s|.\cos\theta$$
But you have to find cosθ.
This will be the long way to calculate work though.
 
gracy said:
For example if I have to find out work done.Force and displacement are given to be (2i^+3j^+4k^)and
(-i^-2j^) respectively.
till now i have been thinking that work done=Force multiplied by displacement cos theta but in my book in solution of the problem above work done is calculated by simply multiplying
(2i^+3j^+4k^)and
(-i^-2j^).
where did cos theta go?when vectors are given in terms of i^,j^, k^ we don't write costheta,that's how it works,right?if yes,reason? I know displacement cos theta implies component of displacement along force.
Your unit vectors i, j, k are mutually orthogonal to one another (at right angles), so cos(θ) is zero for any i≠j terms. You need to look up the dot product in component form for the question above.
 
Vagn said:
Your unit vectors i, j, k are mutually orthogonal to one another (at right angles), so cos(θ) is zero for any i≠j terms
And what about i ,-i terms?will it be cos 180 i.e -1?
 
gracy said:
And what about i ,-i terms?will it be cos 180 i.e -1?
Yes,that's correct.
 
gracy said:
And what about i ,-i terms?will it be cos 180 i.e -1?
The -i component can be understood as (value -1, direction i). With that understanding, when you multiply 2i^ by -i^ the relevant angle is the angle between i^ and i^. That is zero degrees. The result is 2 * -1 * cos(0).

Understood that way, 180 degrees never enters in. All the cosines are equal to 1.
 
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Assuming that both force and displacement are vector constants (i.e., the force doesn't vary and acts along a straight line path), the work done is given by this dot product:
$$W = \vec{F} \cdot \vec{S}$$
Let's assume that ##\vec{F} = <f_1, f_2, f_3>## and ##\vec{S} = < s_1, s_2, s_3>##. Personally, I like this notation better than ##f_1 \vec{i} + f_2 \vec{j} + f_3 \vec{k}## as it is easier to write.

There are two ways to calculate the dot product shown above.
Coordinate form
##W = f_1 s_1 + f_2 s_2 + f_3 s_3##

Coordinate-free form
##W = |\vec{F}| |\vec{S}| cos(\theta)##, where ##\theta## is the angle between the two vectors, and |F| and |S| are the magnitudes of the two vectors. For vectors in R3, the magnitude is the square root of the sum of the squares of the three components. For example, ##|\vec{F} = \sqrt{f_1^2 + f_2^2 + f_3^2}##.
 
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jbriggs444 said:
The -i component can be understood as (value -1, direction i).
Just as valid would be the interpretation that -i has a value of 1 in the direction of -i (i.e., to the left).
jbriggs444 said:
With that understanding, when you multiply 2i^ by -i^ the relevant angle is the angle between i^ and i^. That is zero degrees. The result is 2 * -1 * cos(0).

Understood that way, 180 degrees never enters in. All the cosines are equal to 1.

Using my interpretation, we get the same answer via a different route.
$$\vec{2i} \cdot -\vec{i} = |2\vec{i}| |-\vec{i}| \cos(180°) = (2)(1)(-1) = -2$$
 
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