Mutual inductance interpretation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of mutual inductance in the context of an experimental setup involving two conducting frames, one with a DC source and a variable resistor, and the other with a galvanometer. Participants explore the relationships between current, magnetic flux, and induced electromotive force (emf) within this framework, addressing both theoretical and practical aspects of mutual inductance.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on how to explain mutual inductance using the provided experimental image, questioning the definitions of current and flux in the context of the two frames.
  • Another suggests looking into Transformer Theory as a related concept, although they acknowledge the experiment may not be a perfect example of a transformer.
  • Some participants emphasize that mutual inductance is a defined quantity that relates the induced emf in one coil to the rate of change of current in another, without delving into the underlying reasons for this relationship.
  • There is a discussion about the complexity of the interactions between coils, particularly in AC circuits, and the use of impedance matrices to describe these relationships.
  • One participant expresses a desire for a straightforward derivation of the induced emf and questions the relevance of magnetic flux in the context of mutual inductance.
  • Another participant points out that mutual inductance can be understood as the overall behavior of the coils, suggesting that the original question may not be appropriately framed.
  • Clarifications are made regarding the symbols used in the formulas, with some participants seeking definitions for constants and variables involved in the discussion.
  • There are repeated requests for responses to earlier posts, indicating a desire for further engagement and clarification on specific points raised.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the clarity and relevance of the questions being asked, with some suggesting that the original inquiries may not be addressing the core issues of mutual inductance. There is no consensus on the interpretation of the formulas or the definitions of the constants involved, indicating ongoing disagreement and uncertainty.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various constants and relationships without providing clear definitions or derivations, leading to ambiguity in understanding the context of the discussion. The complexity of measuring and calculating mutual inductance is acknowledged, with some participants suggesting that conventional textbook approaches may be more effective for understanding the topic.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to individuals studying electromagnetic theory, particularly those looking to understand mutual inductance and its applications in circuit design and analysis.

Chemist@
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How to explain mutual inductance with the image I attached? There are two conducting frames, one has a source of DC and a variable resistor, the other just a galvanometer. What I should conclude from this picture that the flux is F1=alpha*I and F2=c*F1, and Ein=-M*dI/dt. How? Is the current I, the induced current in the left frame or the changeable current in the right frame? Is F1 the flux for the left or the right frame?
 

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You may find it useful to look at Transformer Theory (which your experiment is an example of - even if it is a lousy example of a transformer!)
 
I don't want to get delve too deep into the unknown. I just want a rationalization of the experiment I posted.
 
I can't find the one I need.
 
Mutual Inductance is a defined quantity and it tells you the induced emf in one coil, caused by the rate of change of current in the other. This is along the same lines as self inductance. So E = M dI/dt. Why or how it works is not considered in that definition. It's a quantity that can be used on its own as long as the elements are linear. (i.e. no saturating c
 
@Chemist@
You may be trying to second guess this thing. There will be an induced emf which could cause a current to flow (if the circuit is not open circuited) this current will affect the current that flows in the first (primary) coil because of the emf caused by the secondary current. etc. etc. . . . So it's all jumbled up and when you are using AC, can be described in an Impedance Matrix - shown in this link . If. the impedances are only Inductive then you will have a Reactance matrix of the same form.
You say this:
Chemist@ said:
I don't want to get delve too deep into the unknown
but you can't really avoid getting in a bit deep, I'm afraid. The relationships described in this are what applies after a finite settling time - just as the currents in a resistive network. Components appear to 'know' about the presence of the other components because they all contribute to the final answer.
 
The electricity dI/dt in the formula is the electricity of the primary coil?
 
The Mutual Inductance is what causes a Voltage in one coil from the dI/dt in the other. But that doesn't happen in isolation, usually, which is why the volts and current in and out are related by that (matrix) Z parameter formula. Your questions seem to imply that you expect a simple answer and I don't think there is one. Look on that Wiki page at the Two Port network section, which says it all (sorry about the jargon but you can't avoid it.
 
  • #10
I just need to know which current is used in the formula.
 
  • #11
Post 9 tells you, I think.
 
  • #12
So it is the current of the primary coil. The flux through it is c*I, and the flux through the second coil is alpha*c*I?
 
  • #13
Mututal inductance is just the overall behaviour of the coils. There are many different designs for a pair of coils that will have the same Mutual Inductance and the Flux is a separate issue. Are you asking the right question for your needs?
 
  • #14
I just need to derive the induced EMF. Is my reasoning correct?
 
  • #15
If you know the M then you would know the emf in the other coil.
E2 = M12dI1/dt (The M suffix may be the wrong way round but no matter)
But what has that to do with Flux? Using M misses out the magnetic flux - same as the self Inductance value.
As I commented earlier, I don't think you are asking the right question because I have given you the answer to what M stands for. Could you expand on those initial formulae you are using and say where they come from? How "deep" are you prepared to go?
 
  • #16
M=c*alpha and Ein=-dF/dt, and F=M*I. Now could I get a response to my previous posts.
 
  • #17
Chemist@ said:
M=c*alpha and Ein=-dF/dt, and F=M*I. Now could I get a response to my previous posts.
What is alpha? what is c? (speed of light?)?, what is F (Force?)? Or what reference do you have where those symbols are used - second thoughts, I would rather you told me because I am getting fatigued. I am not a mind reader.

Edit - sorry, I can see some of what you mean (caught me at a bad moment and I don't know how to strike through text) but I am not familiar with where you are going. M is defined (already). How are the DC conditions relevant to M? Can you show some workings - from a reference? It means nothing to me, so far. I'm not even sure of the context.

Have you tried a conventional (text book) approach to get what you want?
 
Last edited:
  • #18
c and alpha are proportionality constants. Here is what I got: DC passes through the right coil, but it changes over time because of the variable resistance so it produces a magnetic field with a flux through the left frame of F=c*I, and through the second: F=c*alpha*I=MI. The induced EMF in the right coil is EMF=-dF/dt=-M*dI/dt, that's the full story as I understand it. Is my reasoning correct?
 
  • #19
V = -M dI/dt is the formula I quoted way back and it's correct. Are you just trying to justify that with the steps in your argument? Can't you find a proper derivation somewhere on the Web? Your steps seem to be showing that M is the product of two other constants of proportionality - fair enough. I think the problem is (and it was giving me trouble) that you can't easily actually find what those two constants are - from measurement at least. But it's pretty easy to measure M, though. Calculating M is not easy, in most cases.
 

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