Mutual inductances - are they always equal?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of mutual inductance between coils, particularly in the context of coaxial solenoids and the implications of their geometries on mutual inductance values. Participants explore theoretical definitions, practical examples, and mathematical considerations related to mutual inductance.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that mutual inductance is not necessarily equal for different coils, citing examples like coaxial solenoids of different diameters where the magnetic flux through the inner solenoid is predominantly captured by the outer solenoid.
  • Others assert that mutual inductance should be the same regardless of which coil is considered primary or secondary, emphasizing the importance of magnetic flux linkage.
  • A participant introduces the concept of coupling factors, suggesting that while mutual inductance may be equal, the coupling factors for coaxial cables can differ.
  • There is a call for clarity on the textbook definition of mutual inductance, indicating that misunderstandings may arise without a solid foundation in definitions.
  • One participant mentions that proofs of equality between mutual inductances often rely on vector calculus, and expresses uncertainty about simpler proofs.
  • Another participant references conservation of energy as a means to demonstrate the equality of mutual inductance in transformer action.
  • A participant cites a specific textbook as a resource for understanding the equality of mutual inductances, while also noting the complexity of the underlying mathematics involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether mutual inductance is always equal, with some supporting the equality under certain conditions while others provide counterexamples. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives present.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for a clear definition of mutual inductance and the complexities involved in its mathematical treatment, suggesting that assumptions about geometries and coupling factors may influence interpretations.

htg
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I think not necessarily: consider two coaxial solenoids od significantly different diameters.
Practically the whole magnetic flux through the inner solenoid goes through the outer one, but not the other way around.
 
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mutual inductance is the same whichever coil is taken to be the primary or secondary.
The important quantity is not simply magnetic flux but magnetic flux LINKAGE.
 
LCS = LSC, but:

kCS does not equal kSC, for a coaxial cable, where kCS = center to shield coupling factor; & kSC = shield to center coupling factor.

So a coax has unequal flux coupling factors but I'll leave it as an exercise to the interested reader to find that the mutual inductance is simply the self inductance of the shield, LSS.

Claude
 
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anyone interested should first of all be clear about the (text book) definition of mutual inductance.
Without that we will get nowhere
 
htg said:
Practically the whole magnetic flux through the inner solenoid goes through the outer one, but not the other way around.

But if the bigger outer solenoid has a bigger self-inductance, it only takes a smaller fraction of its total magnetic field to give the same coupling effect.

The neat proofs that the two mutual inductances are equal use vector calculus - I don't know of a "simple" proof.

If the mutual inductances were different, you could construct a perpetual motion machine using that fact - but since PF doesn't discuss perpetual motion machines, I'm not going into any more details of how to do it :smile:
 
It is possible to show equality by considering conservation of energy. The principle is central to analysing transformer action giving Vs/Vp = Ns/Np.
Too much to reproduce here ! but available in any good A level/1st year degree textbook
 
Page 310 to 311 of Introduction to Electrodynamics by Griffiths has complete explanation of L_{12}=L_{21}. I don't think you can always explain Maxwell's equation in a simple ( in easy English) way. You try too hard, you might misinterpret the equations. My suggestion is to look at the meaning of the double integral and learn to make sense of it. You need to be very good and study inside out of Vector Calculus, there is no short cut way. This is not for the weak of heart. I spent over two years studying Vector Calculus, studied and worked through the exercises in 3 different EM books before I think I get some feel of it. If there is an "ABC" way of explain EM, I have not found it yet. And I am by no means claiming I understand EM.

The mutual inductance involves a double integration respect to both loops, so both mutual inductance has the same formula.
 
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