My dream not realized, and I am falling down a deep cliff.

[poutin]

Just in case you are wondering, the "I am falling down a deep cliff" was something I got from "The Catcher in the Rye", I hope I used it correctly in my problem.

Background on Problem

I am a college freshman this fall and I am face with an undecided decision (that was very wordy). I have always been passionate about Math, but only until last year did I really look at Math differently.

In late May of 2010, I wrote the AP Calc BC Exam and during late May, I also decide to enroll myself in a Multi-variable Calc at a community college.

Two days ago, I got my results from my Calc Exam (late testing, late results) and I found out that I scored a 3. Then just today, I got my final grades computed from my MVC and I got a B^- (2.67gpa). My community college runs on a 4.33 gpa scale. The college I have been admitted to, runs on a 4.0gpa scale and converting, I would get a pitiful 2.4gpa

Problem

Now I feel like God just stabbed me twice in the heart because now I really feel like I am fishing for the wrong fish here.

This is really painful for me because I don't know how to present this when I apply for grad school. They look at my application and see an ugly B and they see this is just someone with passion, but no talent and would not benefit the school in the future. Should I even retake MVC to change that B^- at my new university? I feel horrible to even suggest this, but my grandfather passed away in mid-June this year, should I use him as an excuse? He wasn't very close to me, but he was still my grandfather and I feel a bit horrible for using him, just a little unethical and despicable and a disgusting temptation.

I have talked with my instructor and he said that I should try other areas of Math to see which one is for me. (explained later in my post)

I signed up for Calc I and II and first semester of Linear Algebra this fall (two terms) and my instructor thought that Linear Algebra was a good choice, but maybe I should argue with my new university department to let me skip freshman calc

And here I am, no idea what to do, if I get a pathetic and pitiful grade in an elementary math course like MVC, is there even hope for me? My 3 in my AP Calc (which I self-studied) seems to say the same.

What am I suppose to do, what path should I take. I feel like I am not getting anywhere.

My talk with my instructor (optional read)

After I received such an embarrassing grade, I had a talk with him and discussed some prospects with him. He told me that he nearly failed Calc I, but he bumped it to a C+ because he scored like a 98% on the finals and how he actually failed Calc III when he first started (probably said it to make me feel better). He also said that maybe Calculus is not for me and maybe some other area of Math is for me. He said I should try discrete math, probability, or real analysis and see maybe I can go on from there and if there is no concrete results shown, then I should consider switching my major.

But I feel like a lot of his past errors are overlooked because it was probably like 20 years ago and I am sure that the competition today is much more frightening. In addition, I think all Math connects with one another and I feel like these two failures (Calc BC and MVC) showed that I am incompetent for this, but I can't get off the passion for doing anything else.

Important info forgot to add

I should also mention that I am Canadian, so the lack of grad school for direct ph.d entries is scaring me. Not even sure if funding exists in Canada.

Thank you for reading PF

 

[Angry Citizen]

Grad school? You're a Freshman. No offense, but you're looking waaay too far ahead right now. Grad school admissions boards aren't going to give a hoot about your B- if you score an A in topology or complex analysis. It's the higher courses that count.

But remember, the grades reflect how well you learned the material. If you didn't learn the material, you might be ill-suited for more advanced classes. But with a B-, you'll be fine. To be honest, you being an upcoming freshman, you don't sound like you're used to anything less than an A. Get used to B's and C's. College is not high school. In high school, you were the smartest kid, or at least one of the top ten probably. Now you're going to be with a bunch of other kids who were in the top ten. You think everyone's going to still make A's? Not likely.

 

[poutin]

Grad school? You're a Freshman. No offense, but you're looking waaay too far ahead right now. Grad school admissions boards aren't going to give a hoot about your B- if you score an A in topology or complex analysis. It's the higher courses that count.

But remember, the grades reflect how well you learned the material. If you didn't learn the material, you might be ill-suited for more advanced classes. But with a B-, you'll be fine. To be honest, you being an upcoming freshman, you don't sound like you're used to anything less than an A. Get used to B's and C's. College is not high school. In high school, you were the smartest kid, or at least one of the top ten probably. Now you're going to be with a bunch of other kids who were in the top ten. You think everyone's going to still make A's? Not likely.

I should also add that Cs were very common in my high school report card except Math...

 

[Leptos]

Why not just decline credit transfer for the MVC course you took? This way you could retake it this coming semester, and you'll probably be better prepared now since you've taken the course already.

 

[poutin]

Why not just decline credit transfer for the MVC course you took? This way you could retake it this coming semester, and you'll probably be better prepared now since you've taken the course already.

I am not (have not) trasnfered it yet, but it still remains in the record at my community college.

 

[Leptos]

I am not (have not) trasnfered it yet, but it still remains in the record at my community college.

Then there's no problem. Just retake MVC this Fall semester and you'll be fine. And remember, for every 1 hour in math class you should be spending 2-3 hours doing homework/studying.

 

[lisab]

If you don't feel you really understand the material well, or even if you aren't sure why you didn't do well, then retake that class.

Your instructor gave very good advice: the material in those classes he mentioned is very different, you may find that you love it.

 

[poutin]

Then there's no problem. Just retake MVC this Fall semester and you'll be fine. And remember, for every 1 hour in math class you should be spending 2-3 hours doing homework/studying.

When I apply to grad school, should I even tell them this embarrassing thing?

I thought retaking a class is like stamping a "throw away" stamp on my applications when I apply according to these threads



https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=405974
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=155637

 

[sEsposito]

My friend, you're thinking way too far ahead... Forget about grad school right now, you're not even into undergrad yet. Take a moment and realize a few things:

1. MVC is far from an "elementary math class".
2. No one ever has to know that you even took that course.
3. You can take it again after calc I and II (and III); this is the normal sequence.
4. You haven't even got your feet wet with mathematics.. There are so many areas of study, and no one likes them all. For example I detest statistics, but love calculus.

Slow down and take your time. The worst thing you could do is rush through the undergrad courses as they are the basis for your future (should you stay in mathematics). Learn a lot and enjoy.

Good luck.

 

[Leptos]

When I apply to grad school, should I even tell them this embarrassing thing?

I thought retaking a class is like stamping a "throw away" stamp on my applications when I apply according to these threads

They were talking about re-taking courses they took at their current college which is very different from how you took a course at your CC in your senior year of high school. The college you're going to won't even consider your grade on MVC for the course you took at the end of senior year. Your slate is clean right now, plus you now have an idea of what is expected of you in college math courses.

Since you got a 3 on the AP BC exam, your college probably will make you start at Calculus II, which is perfectly fine(in fact, you may find it very helpful since the course won't be centered completely around passing some standardized exam).

 

[poutin]

My friend, you're thinking way too far ahead... Forget about grad school right now, you're not even into undergrad yet. Take a moment and realize a few things:

1. MVC is far from an "elementary math class".
2. No one ever has to know that you even took that course.
3. You can take it again after calc I and II (and III); this is the normal sequence.
4. You haven't even got your feet wet with mathematics.. There are so many areas of study, and no one likes them all. For example I detest statistics, but love calculus.

Slow down and take your time. The worst thing you could do is rush through the undergrad courses as they are the basis for your future (should you stay in mathematics). Learn a lot and enjoy.

Good luck.

1. MVC is an elementary class, it's a sophomore course supposingly. And every math-related careers need it, hence elementary.
2. When I apply, if I don't tell them, won't they think I am lying?
3. I might put away for it aside and take differentials and then do it again at junior years?
4. I thought stats was different from math, I mean 1st-year stats maybe the same, but onwards is not.

 

[Choppy]

I wouldn't worry about what you're going to put down on a graduate school application right now. Instead, concern yourself about doing the best you can for the level you're at. This could very well have been just a case of taking on too much while still in high school.

But I feel like a lot of his past errors are overlooked because it was probably like 20 years ago and I am sure that the competition today is much more frightening.

Not sure why this would be. Either way, there are lots of people that get into graduate school who have done less than stellar in a few undergraduate classes. As has already been stated, it's more important how you do in the more advanced classes. The trick is making sure you're focused on the right things so that you do perform well in those classes.

I should also mention that I am Canadian, so the lack of grad school for direct ph.d entries is scaring me. Not even sure if funding exists in Canada.

I'm not sure what you mean in the first statement. It's more common in Canada to be accepted first to an MSc program, but that's just a title. Lot's of people skip directly into the PhD program after their first year and it's no different than having been directly admitted to a PhD program.

And yes, graduate students are generally funded in Canada.

 

[PieceOfPi]

1. MVC is an elementary class, it's a sophomore course supposingly. And every math-related careers need it, hence elementary.

Elementary doesn't necessarily mean easy. For example, organic chemistry is a sophomore-level course for chemistry majors at my school, and they are "elementary" according to your definition (after all, every chemist needs to know organic chemistry, right?), but I don't think it's an easy class at all (I'm not a chemistry major, so I wouldn't know). And it is certainly possible that you can get B's in these elementary courses, even when you are brilliant, and grad school admissions are aware of that. That's why your grades/GPA is not the only indicator for graduate school; you will need to turn in letters of recommendations, statement of purpose, GRE scores (both general and subject), and other things you've done while you were an undergrad (e.g. research, thesis, math-related work). So I think stressing on grade from a MVC class is a waste of time, and you should find a way to prove that you can actually do MVC (i.e. "elementary" material!) in more advanced courses like real analysis, complex analysis, differential geometry, etc. You got a B-, and I think that means you learned something from that class; maybe some part of it is still rusty for you, but I believe you can review those materials on your own.

4. I thought stats was different from math, I mean 1st-year stats maybe the same, but onwards is not.

It kind of is and kind of isn't... It's more like an applied math. But that's not the main point here; sEsposito is simply trying to tell you that you will likely to enjoy one area of math more than the other. This is why many mathematicians specialize in certain topics, like algebraist, analyst, geometer, topologist, probabilist, and the list goes on...

 

[rm446]

First of all, we all have set backs. Your professor definitely was not lieing too you, if he really thought you didn't have what it takes he'd have gently told you to stay away from math completely. Also I've gotten a M.S. in controls engineering from UC Irvine and I can tell you the they could care less about how you did in your first year of college, it's all about how well you can do the advance material to them. I mean I once had to take a final behind someone who clearly hadn't bathed in two weeks (smelled friggin awful but there were no other chairs left in the room), do you really think you'll end up as worse grad student material than Mr. Needs-a-bath by the time you graduate? lol

Don't count your passion for you field as nothing too, if the professors at your university know of your passion and dedication to mathematics, they'll be more than willing to not only assist you during office hours but also write a hell of a recommendation which counts for a lot.

So yah, in summary no one will ever care about one bad class. I'd suggest retaking the course in college, nobody is going to look down on you for having to retake a course you tried to take 1-2 years ahead of the usual time. You just sound like your down in the dumps, so I'd suggest watching a few Rocky movies (the montage's cheer me up) and challenging the course to a rematch.

 

[johng23]

I'd like to offer what I think is some of the most critical advice about being a scientist or mathematician. When you are struggling to understand something, don't torment yourself with the idea that other people understood it quicker. Allow yourself the time to think about whatever is confusing you, even if it seems simple. Virtually no one can understand a complex problem in one step. The successful ones have simply been patient and taken the time to break the problem down into simple parts that they can comprehend.

All I am getting at is that MVC is not an easy topic. I got an A in it, and later tutored it at my school, but that doesn't mean I found it easy. There were a ton of concepts that I really had to struggle with at the time. Anyone who acts like it was totally simple is probably just showing off. And oftentimes the people who go through the class telling themselves it is simple are the people who actually don't understand things as well as they thought they did.

Josiah Willard Gibbs said "One of the principal objects of theoretical research in my department of knowledge is to find the point of view from which the subject appears in its greatest simplicity." If you truly understand what you're doing, it SHOULD seem elementary! Even once you're a grad student.

I guess this post was irrelevant to your question. Sorry.

 

[twofish-quant]

I thought retaking a class is like stamping a "throw away" stamp on my applications when I apply according to these threads

For freshman classes, people aren't going to care very much.

In any case, one thing that you are going to have to learn in college is "damage control."

Given that things don't go the way that you want (and they won't), what can you do to keep working toward your goal, whatever it is. If you retake a class and then have a solid foundation for your upper level classes, then that's going to be far, far, far matter than if you just head into upper level classes unprepared and fall apart.

"Damage control" is pretty important because at some point it may or may not become obvious that you just can't get into the top schools, but if it's important enough to you, then you just tell yourself that you are heading for the middle schools, and if you can't get into the middle schools, then go for the bottom schools, and if you can't get into the bottom schools, then figure out what you can get.

 

[twofish-quant]

I am a college freshman this fall and I am face with an undecided decision (that was very wordy). I have always been passionate about Math, but only until last year did I really look at Math differently.

What you are going through is pretty common, and it happens with a lot of people freshman year in college. What happens is that most people that are into physics and math do very well in high school, but when they hit college they suddenly realize that they in their group, they are either average or below average, and it's a pretty shocking feeling for most people to deal with.

One question that you sort of ask yourself is to you love math and physics enough to do it even if it turns out that you are awful at it. You are destined to be awful in math and physics, because if it turns out that you are good, you get promoted to the next level, and eventually you'll find a level in which the people around you are just better than you.

Dealing with that is part of your education.

Two days ago, I got my results from my Calc Exam (late testing, late results) and I found out that I scored a 3. Then just today, I got my final grades computed from my MVC and I got a B^- (2.67gpa).

A B- isn't the end of the world, and taking multi-variable calculus as a freshmen is quite challenging. The important thing that you need to figure out is if you understand the math enough to take further courses or if you need to retake the class.

This is really painful for me because I don't know how to present this when I apply for grad school. They look at my application and see an ugly B and they see this is just someone with passion, but no talent and would not benefit the school in the future.

People aren't going to care that much if you do decent in your other classes. What you really *should* be concerned about isn't graduate school applications. What you really should be concerned about is that you are getting into a mental state that may make it impossible for you to finish your degree at all.

This is *NOT* the last time you are going to do badly on a test, and this is *NOT* the last time you get a sub-par grade. If you dust yourself off, and recover from it, then you'll muddle through. If you can't deal with bad grades and bad tests, then you aren't going to get to the point where you will be able to apply for graduate school, and then *getting* through graduate school is a series of obstacles and challenges, and then getting through life after graduate school is also a series of obstacles and challenges.

You are going to screw up. You are going to mess up majorly because you are human and math and physics is a hard subject. You are going to have bad grades, you are going to bad days or bad weeks. You are going mess up majorly. You are going to get rejected for graduate school, post-doc, faculty positions. This is going to happen because you happen to be a human being, and you just have to face that fact.

But what works for me is that I stopped caring a few years ago that the person next to me was ten times smarter than me. Math and physics are cool, and they are cool enough to be worth a bad grade or two.

Should I even retake MVC to change that B^- at my new university?

If you think you aren't prepared for the next set of courses, absolutely.

And here I am, no idea what to do, if I get a pathetic and pitiful grade in an elementary math course like MVC, is there even hope for me?

MVC is not an elementary math course.

He also said that maybe Calculus is not for me and maybe some other area of Math is for me. He said I should try discrete math, probability, or real analysis and see maybe I can go on from there and if there is no concrete results shown, then I should consider switching my major.

Do you like math? Do you like math enough to study it even if it turns out that you are just not that good at it?

But I feel like a lot of his past errors are overlooked because it was probably like 20 years ago and I am sure that the competition today is much more frightening.

Why are you so worried about the competition? One of the things that I had to learn in college, and which everyone that does physics has to learn is that not everything is a competition. If you get yourself in a state of mind where it is number one or nothing than you are just not going to be able to do productive work in physics or math.

If you aren't making mistakes, then you aren't trying hard enough.

 

[twofish-quant]

1. MVC is an elementary class, it's a sophomore course supposingly. And every math-related careers need it, hence elementary.

It's something that requires a high degree of knowledge. The fact that you got a B- as a freshmen in MVC looks pretty good to me.

2. When I apply, if I don't tell them, won't they think I am lying?

Applications committees have to go through hundreds of applications and they actually prefer that you don't tell them information that is irrelevant. The fact that you took MVC twice is not going to be relevant.

3. I might put away for it aside and take differentials and then do it again at junior years?

Do whatever you need to do to keep yourself in the game.

 

[poutin]

It's something that requires a high degree of knowledge. The fact that you got a B- as a freshmen in MVC looks pretty good to me.

But that B^- is like on a 4.33 scale, it's like 61%

 

[PieceOfPi]

But that B^- is like on a 4.33 scale, it's like 61%

Irrelevant. B- just means B-; it means a "good" or "above average" work, unless your school uses different grading strategy.

 

[Academic]

At my undergrad B- was definitely below average. That said, getting below average in a class or two isn't a big deal as long as you don't make a habit of it.

 

[twofish-quant]

But that B^- is like on a 4.33 scale, it's like 61%

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. I've had tests in which people were jumping for joy at getting 30%. The fact that you even passed a class on MVC as a freshman is something I'd be a little proud of if I were you. Heck, you probably should get points for even *trying* MVC.

Also, what *is* your dream? If you want to be a maths research professor, that's just a not likely to happen. Nothing to do with competition, it's just that there are too few spots, and the odds are that you aren't going to get a spot even if you ace your classes.

If you want a life doing math, that's different. But you just have to start getting used to getting doing poorly on tests and classes, because getting used to doing poorly (otherwise known as being human) is part of the lifestyle. Getting a B- is not going to destroy your career. It's just not. Getting in a situation where you can't handle a B- will.

 

[General_Sax]

Yeah, if I were you I would just suicide self, because with that B- you're only barely qualified to work the Drive-Thru(sic). So, if you don't want to end up homeless on the streets giving hand-jobs for crack, I would do my best to hide the fact that you ever took this class. Go to whatever lengths you must, up to and including offering sexual favors to any and all relevant parties. And I hope that I'm relevant ;p

 

[poutin]

Which is not necessarily a bad thing. I've had tests in which people were jumping for joy at getting 30%. The fact that you even passed a class on MVC as a freshman is something I'd be a little proud of if I were you. Heck, you probably should get points for even *trying* MVC.

Also, what *is* your dream? If you want to be a maths research professor, that's just a not likely to happen. Nothing to do with competition, it's just that there are too few spots, and the odds are that you aren't going to get a spot even if you ace your classes.

If you want a life doing math, that's different. But you just have to start getting used to getting doing poorly on tests and classes, because getting used to doing poorly (otherwise known as being human) is part of the lifestyle. Getting a B- is not going to destroy your career. It's just not. Getting in a situation where you can't handle a B- will.

I would jump for joy if the course was Math 55, but it isn't. It's a course that thousand of Physics/Math students take in the world and I am not proud of it.

 

[Theorem.]

I should also mention that I am Canadian, so the lack of grad school for direct ph.d entries is scaring me. Not even sure if funding exists in Canada.

Thank you for reading PF

Are you serious? Canada is one of the most generous countries when it comes to education. Of course we have funding. And you shouldn't expect to get direct ph.d entry anywhere in the world that easily.

 

[deRham]

Elementary doesn't necessarily mean easy. For example, organic chemistry is a sophomore-level course for chemistry majors at my school, and they are "elementary" according to your definition (after all, every chemist needs to know organic chemistry, right?), but I don't think it's an easy class at all (I'm not a chemistry major, so I wouldn't know). And it is certainly possible that you can get B's in these elementary courses, even when you are brilliant, and grad school admissions are aware of that. That's why your grades/GPA is not the only indicator for graduate school; you will need to turn in letters of recommendations, statement of purpose, GRE scores (both general and subject), and other things you've done while you were an undergrad (e.g. research, thesis, math-related work).

GOLDEN advice. And for your age it isn't elementary. You mature over time, believe it or not. In two years, you'll find MVC very elementary, but it isn't for your level. Further, the nature of a class like MVC is different from that of the upper classes.

You should always have several plans in mind, in case one doesn't work out, and make sure all of them are attractive to you, so that you do what you really want to, not what you thought you want to.

 

[kramer733]

I would jump for joy if the course was Math 55, but it isn't. It's a course that thousand of Physics/Math students take in the world and I am not proud of it.

You are seriously the whiniest person here in physics forums and trust me. there are many people here who are whiny. You guys always ***** about not getting into caltech at undergrad or mit. Reality is, you've got a fine education and depending on where you live, it's free as well. Chances are, you guys live in a house and get food and clothing and for the most part, clean water. And if you can read this message, you are luckier than the 3billion people who can't read or do not have access to the technology that we have. SERIOUSLY, this is one of the reasons why i hate this forum but i love the forum as a community where you guys try to answer and help people with math problems and any homeowrk problems.

Sadly, i see a lot of what i take as whiny threads where people ask the same thing over and over again. "Oh no! I got a 3.71 gpa and i can't get into mit for my undergrad." STOP! It's not the end of the world. Maybe this will interfere with your goal a bit but in the long schemes of things, mi doubt it.

 

[Troponin]

I wish I had something more comforting to say, but the truth of the matter is that you're pretty much d.o.n.e as far as academia is concerned.

My early years showed promise for intellectual success until I ruined it all at age 16. I ended up really pushing my limits my junior year of H.S. and ended getting a C in Calc III.

Flash forward 11 years later and I'm a college drop out working construction for $19,000 a year. The aggregate of my hopes and dreams derailed the day I got my grade in Calc III, never again to reclaim solid footing on the track to success.

I'm pitching a reality TV show to the networks that stars me as a handsome "millionaire" who hopes to find a wife amongst a houseful of carefully selected women.
The big "thing" is that I tell them that I'm broke in the very last episode...

Good luck with things, because high school grades remain incredibly important throughout your life.

 

[lisab]

I wish I had something more comforting to say, but the truth of the matter is that you're pretty much d.o.n.e as far as academia is concerned.

My early years showed promise for intellectual success until I ruined it all at age 16. I ended up really pushing my limits my junior year of H.S. and ended getting a C in Calc III.

Flash forward 11 years later and I'm a college drop out working construction for $19,000 a year. The aggregate of my hopes and dreams derailed the day I got my grade in Calc III, never again to reclaim solid footing on the track to success.

I'm pitching a reality TV show to the networks that stars me as a handsome "millionaire" who hopes to find a wife amongst a houseful of carefully selected women.
The big "thing" is that I tell them that I'm broke in the very last episode...

Good luck with things, because high school grades remain incredibly important throughout your life.

Is that some sort of joke? I hope so, because it's horrible advice.

Not doing as well as expected in a class is something that happens to everyone. It does not doom you to failure. If you choose to learn from a setback, you become stronger and more resolute; it builds your character.

To the OP: pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and try again.

 

[hadsed]

I'm pretty sure he just explained the story of Joe Millionaire... lol.

Anyway, it's just one class. Figure out why you screwed up, study harder, study more, and do better. Sheesh..

 

[twofish-quant]

I would jump for joy if the course was Math 55, but it isn't. It's a course that thousand of Physics/Math students take in the world and I am not proud of it.

That's fine. People react in different ways to these sorts of situations. One thing that you will just have to get used to is the fact that you are not as smart as you thought you were and you are not nearly as smart as you want to be. The question at that point is if you will react by giving up, or if there is something that keeps you going. This is *NOT* going to be the last time you get a grade that you are not satisfied with, and you just need to get used to that.

The good news is that everyone goes through this so you can count on some sympathy from people.

 

[poutin]

You are seriously the whiniest person here in physics forums and trust me. there are many people here who are whiny. You guys always ***** about not getting into caltech at undergrad or mit. Reality is, you've got a fine education and depending on where you live, it's free as well. Chances are, you guys live in a house and get food and clothing and for the most part, clean water. And if you can read this message, you are luckier than the 3billion people who can't read or do not have access to the technology that we have. SERIOUSLY, this is one of the reasons why i hate this forum but i love the forum as a community where you guys try to answer and help people with math problems and any homeowrk problems.

Sadly, i see a lot of what i take as whiny threads where people ask the same thing over and over again. "Oh no! I got a 3.71 gpa and i can't get into mit for my undergrad." STOP! It's not the end of the world. Maybe this will interfere with your goal a bit but in the long schemes of things, mi doubt it.

Why in the world would I compare myself with non-competitors?

 

[poutin]

I wish I had something more comforting to say, but the truth of the matter is that you're pretty much d.o.n.e as far as academia is concerned.

My early years showed promise for intellectual success until I ruined it all at age 16. I ended up really pushing my limits my junior year of H.S. and ended getting a C in Calc III.

Flash forward 11 years later and I'm a college drop out working construction for $19,000 a year. The aggregate of my hopes and dreams derailed the day I got my grade in Calc III, never again to reclaim solid footing on the track to success.

I'm pitching a reality TV show to the networks that stars me as a handsome "millionaire" who hopes to find a wife amongst a houseful of carefully selected women.
The big "thing" is that I tell them that I'm broke in the very last episode...

Good luck with things, because high school grades remain incredibly important throughout your life.

It was a college grade, not high school.

 

[hadsed]

Poutin, people have already told you that you can fix this. You should be studying right now. That's probably why you got such a crappy grade in the first place, you probably don't know how to get a good grade. That means get off this website and study. And for god's sake stop whining.. if you work hard enough, you will get an A. It's as simple as that.

 

[twofish-quant]

That means get off this website and study. And for god's sake stop whining.. if you work hard enough, you will get an A. It's as simple as that.

Not true. If you work hard enough, you'll get yourself promoted to another group of people in which you are struggling to make a B. If you really want straight A's, take trivially easy classes that don't challenge you at all.

 

[hadsed]

Oh fine. The point I was really trying to make was that this guy simply isn't trying hard enough. At the moment, he clearly wants to succeed at this level. Perhaps at a higher level he will decide it's not worth it to spend his life getting to the point where others can get to without nearly as much effort. I don't think this is that point... so he should put in the time.

 

[PieceOfPi]

Poutin, I think by this time, you realized that the general opinion of the people on this thread is that getting a B- in a MVC class is not going to kill your chance of going to a graduate school in math, and you should work hard on doing something else. Somehow, you don't seem to believe what the people are saying on this thread. I'm not sure why, but I feel like you don't believe the ideas on here because you don't like it. Maybe you just don't like to work hard for your dream. While it is true that there are people who never achieve their dreams despite how much they work, it is certainly true that working hard can increase your chance of achieving your dream. Do you want to go to a graduate school in math? Then you might want to start working harder for it --that's right, harder, not the way you are working right now. Perhaps, a B- from your MVC course might be a wake-up call for you--if you don't start working harder, you will never learn how to do that.

You told us that you were getting a lot of C's in your high school courses expect for math. That might be because you never learned how to (1) work hard, and/or (2) study to get good grades. I understand some of the classes in high school are boring and pointless, but that is not an excuse for getting C's. And this is probably why you are feeling the way you are right now--you got a crappy grade in your math class, and you don't know what to do. And I think this is one of the things that is causing you to disbelieve in everything.

You still have a chance to study math in graduate school, but you seem too weak to grab that chance; if you don't change right now, I have a feeling that you will never see that chance again. Fortunately, nobody cares about your high school GPA once you're in college, and as people say, a grade from MVC is not going to kill your chance of going to a decent graduate school in mathematics. The question is, are you going to grab that chance or not? If you decided not to, forget what I just said...

 

[twofish-quant]

Oh fine. The point I was really trying to make was that this guy simply isn't trying hard enough.

I don't see any evidence of that, and I've seen people get into trouble in the math and sciences by trying *too hard* rather than not hard enough. People have their limits and part of the trick in physics and mathematics is to figure out what to do when you hit your limits.

When you actually do hit your limits, "try harder" is seriously bad advance. One problem is that mathematically it doesn't work. If you have 20 smart people, someone is going to get the B-, and if they all try harder then someone is still going to get the B-.

At the moment, he clearly wants to succeed at this level.

Yes, and I think his expectations are unrealistic and counterproductive.

It seems to me that they are holding him back, rather than pushing them forward. If you are working at 110%, then you are going to burnout. If you are working at 85%, then paradoxically guilt that you aren't working hard enough sometimes is what keeps you from working harder.

Also there is such a thing as figuring out where to put your effort into. Personally, I've found it more useful to most *less* effort into getting A+'s than to get B's in courses and then spend time reading things that weren't assigned in class. Or to forget about getting an A+ in intro arithmetic and work on getting a B- in whatever class I could do that was at the limit of my ability.

 

[twofish-quant]

Perhaps, a B- from your MVC course might be a wake-up call for you--if you don't start working harder, you will never learn how to do that.

I should mention here that I have a Ph.D., and I think this is exactly the wrong advice. When I was an undergraduate at MIT, I saw more people get into trouble by working too hard than not working hard enough. If you start working too hard, you burn out. The reason I react strongly against advice to *work harder* is that people that are close to burning out get into even worse situation if they try to work harder.

One problem is that if you are close to burn out, then if you just work harder, you are unlikely to be doing things that are useful, and the fact that you are putting more effort and getting less out just makes your situation worse.

If you are taking MVC, your problem is very unlikely to be lack of mental effort or intelligence.

The question is, are you going to grab that chance or not? If you decided not to, forget what I just said...

I think this is pretty awful advice. If you make people think there is just one chance, then you'll go nuts if you miss than chance. People will make mistakes, and even if you do everything right, things will not go your way.

If you want to have a career in math and physics, you have got to learn to *relax*. You'll be doing this for decades, and if you don't *relax* then you'll burn out, and once you burn out and hate math and physics, then it doesn't matter how many other chances come along.

 

[Leptos]

But that B^- is like on a 4.33 scale, it's like 61%

Did you check if your college would ignore that grade if you take MVC this Fall? If you do start off with a clean transcript this coming semester, then there's no reason to worry.

 

[hadsed]

Well the only way we can know if he's 'hit the wall', so to speak, or if he's just not focusing on academics as much and studying as well as he should be is if he tells us. Otherwise, I think we're both giving advice based on [obviously shaky] assumptions.

But I have a feeling that my assumption was correct, and I think I'm probably thinking of it this way because of the fact that a lot of underclassmen who make a bad grade freak out and think that all the sudden they're not as smart as they thought. This is probably true in some cases, but I think the more likely case is that they don't have study habits and learning skills that are up to par with the material they're trying to learn. Then they freak out and automatically conclude that they're just losers. I think that your (talking to two-fish here) argument makes more sense (but definitely not limited to) at the higher levels. Also, if you went to MIT I think you'd be more likely to see this happen during, say, freshman year. Of course I'm making more assumptions here.. but I hope you see what I'm saying here.

 

[deRham]

But I have a feeling that my assumption was correct, and I think I'm probably thinking of it this way because of the fact that a lot of underclassmen who make a bad grade freak out and think that all the sudden they're not as smart as they thought. This is probably true in some cases, but I think the more likely case is that they don't have study habits and learning skills that are up to par with the material they're trying to learn.

The point I was really trying to make was that this guy simply isn't trying hard enough.

I think you might be making two different (not necessarily exclusive) claims. I think the fellow is probably working hard, from the sounds of his anguish. First off, a lot of people do poorly in a beginning level course and do better in advanced courses, because while they have great aptitude for advanced material, they do not have test-taking aptitude that becomes more important with earlier level material. There's a difference between elementary level tricks and the real stuff.

I think that re-evaluating approach and concentrating on doing well in higher-level stuff is the best I can say. Be smart about how you learn, and do what you need to do to stay in the running for your goals - don't jump off a cliff, that's a surprisingly important bit of advice. Just don't totally ruin your grades.

If you start working too hard, you burn out. The reason I react strongly against advice to *work harder* is that people that are close to burning out get into even worse situation if they try to work harder.

Quoted for truth. Life is long, if you take care of yourself. It's not short, that's just a trite expression, and you'll find things change a lot. Keep yourself productive and you'll find half the people around you will lose the battle just because they lose the steam to continue.

 

[deRham]

Then you might want to start working harder for it --that's right, harder, not the way you are working right now. Perhaps, a B- from your MVC course might be a wake-up call for you--if you don't start working harder, you will never learn how to do that.

I don't have a PhD, but I also don't think this is the way to approach it. MVC is not reflective of what you'll do in grad school. You SHOULD be able to find MVC elementary in time, but that doesn't mean you were prepared for it at the time you took it, poutin.

Maturity, loving to think about the subject inside out, etc are what you need for a PhD. To get into a top notch program, you also will need to worry about grades and test scores, and have lots of luck. Lots of smart people decide that they don't care enough about selling their souls to academia for them to obsess about doing what is needed to get into top programs, etc -- they can enjoy math, physics, etc in different places. You can make a better career going to a non-top program than a top program, if you plan correctly, especially assuming your career is not in academia.

Poutin, people have already told you that you can fix this. You should be studying right now. That's probably why you got such a crappy grade in the first place, you probably don't know how to get a good grade. That means get off this website and study. And for god's sake stop whining.. if you work hard enough, you will get an A. It's as simple as that.

Studying smarter with good advice in mind is more important than studying harder. Getting an A in MVC does not take that much studying, let's be realistic. You have to try lots of problems and be able to juggle the theory well when asked to apply it in different situations. If you are able to try lots of things, you will probably arrive at the answer anyway.

I think spending time understanding what went wrong and recovering from the blow is more important than spending that much more time studying, this is math, not history, where memorizing and read big, fat books every week isn't the point.

 

[twofish-quant]

This is probably true in some cases, but I think the more likely case is that they don't have study habits and learning skills that are up to par with the material they're trying to learn.

I've seen this a lot in non-science majors. In the case of people that do physics and math, I've rarely found that poor study habits is really the root problem. What tends to happen is that in physics, math, engineering courses, the tendency is to raise the bar to levels that are frankly unreachable.

Even when poor study habits is an issue, telling someone to study harder is rarely useful, because if you are studying the wrong way, then doing it harder will lead to just more frustration. Personally, I don't think that a freshman with poor study habits is going to pass MVC, and the fact that someone gets a B- suggests that poor study habits is not the main problem.

 

[twofish-quant]

First off, a lot of people do poorly in a beginning level course and do better in advanced courses, because while they have great aptitude for advanced material, they do not have test-taking aptitude that becomes more important with earlier level material. There's a difference between elementary level tricks and the real stuff.

The other thing is that you have to figure out what the best use of your time really is, and sometimes getting an A instead of a B- *isn't* your best use of your time. If you spend less time getting an A+ and more time reading things that are not assigned in class, or may have nothing to do with what the teacher assigned, then that may be a good thing to do.

Something that I see a lot of people do is that they forget what it is that they are really trying to do. There is this idea that if you study hard and work yourself to death, then there is a pot of gold at the end of the trail when there just isn't one. After, you go through undergraduate, there is grad school, after that post-docs, then if you go into academia you have junior faculty craziness and then senior faculty craziness.

It doesn't get any easier, and if you don't learn to enjoy the material at least some of them time, you really should ask yourself what you are doing.

The thing about college is that you should be asking yourself what you really want to do. You can make mistakes and do stupid things. The reason that you end up making a lot of mistakes and doing a lot of stupid things is that you often don't know what is a mistake and a stupid thing until you actually do it.

Just don't totally ruin your grades.

Also, if you need an easy grade, then take a class that is basically the same as the one that you just took.