Myelin increases resistance across the cell membrane

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the role of myelin in increasing resistance and decreasing capacitance across the cell membrane, particularly in relation to the speed of action potentials in myelinated versus demyelinated axons. Participants explore the implications of these changes on signal velocity and the underlying mechanisms involved, including the structure of neurons and the behavior of capacitors in series.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference Wikipedia's claim that myelin increases resistance by a factor of 5,000 and decreases capacitance by a factor of 50, questioning the reasoning behind the decrease in capacitance.
  • One participant suggests that myelin may increase the distance between capacitor plates more than it changes the dielectric constant, affecting capacitance.
  • Another participant provides experimental data indicating that action potentials travel at approximately 25 m/s in unmyelinated axons and can increase to about 50 m/s in myelinated axons.
  • It is noted that myelin reduces capacitance because the multiple layers of myelin around a neuron act like capacitors in series, leading to a decrease in total capacitance.
  • Some participants discuss the implications of demyelination, suggesting that it could prevent action potentials from propagating effectively due to a lack of voltage-gated channels beneath the myelin sheath.
  • There is a suggestion that the depolarization at nodes of Ranvier may be greater in demyelinated axons compared to myelinated axons, raising questions about the dynamics of action potential generation.
  • One participant emphasizes that while myelin increases resistance and decreases capacitance, action potentials will still decay over time and need to be regenerated at the nodes of Ranvier.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the effects of myelin on capacitance and action potential propagation, with no clear consensus reached. Some agree on the basic principles of how myelin affects conduction velocity, while others raise questions about the specifics of demyelination and its consequences.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge that the discussion involves complex interactions between capacitance, resistance, and the structure of neuronal membranes, with some limitations in the assumptions made about the behavior of demyelinated axons and the presence of voltage-gated channels.

  • #31


somasimple said:
C is proportional to A and inversely proportional to d since C =e*A/d
Yes.

somasimple said:
Thus if A is augmented (internode), even if d is augmented, C is augmented
That depends entirely on which is augmented more. If they are both doubled then C is unchanged. If A is doubled and d is tripled then C is reduced to 2/3 of its original value. On the other hand if A is tripled and d is doubled then C is augmented to 3/2 of its original value.
 
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  • #32


DaleSpam,
Give the results in our example.
50 turns of myelin (50*d) and a length that is 2000 time longer (2000*A). :zzz:
 
  • #33


somasimple said:
50 turns of myelin (50*d) and a length that is 2000 time longer (2000*A). :zzz:
This is not correct. The presence or absence of the mylein doesn't change the length at all. It may slightly change A by a small increase in the circumference.
 
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  • #34


DaleSpam said:
This is not correct. t may slightly change A by a small increase in the circumference.
Thats is not a result at all!
Please give us your result (and computation)? :rolleyes:

DaleSpam said:
The presence or absence of the mylein doesn't change the length at all.
Where did I said the length was modified?
 
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  • #35


somasimple said:
Thats is not a result at all!
Please give us your result (and computation)? :rolleyes:
What result and computation are you talking about?

somasimple said:
Where did I said the length was modified?
Your previous post where you said:
somasimple said:
50 turns of myelin (50*d) and a length that is 2000 time longer (2000*A). :zzz:


It is very difficult for me to communicate with you. I know that a large part of that is a language barrier, so I am trying to be patient.
 
  • #36
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?act=Q&ID=102572102
 
  • #37


somasimple said:
50 turns of myelin (50*d) and a length that is 2000 time longer (2000*A). :zzz:

Yes, myelin allows the total capacitance of an internode and a node to be roughly the same even though the internode is ~1000 longer than the node.
 
  • #38


somasimple said:
DaleSpam,
Give the results in our example.
50 turns of myelin (50*d) and a length that is 2000 time longer (2000*A). :zzz:

Your question is rather ambiguous the way it is worded. Length of what? What "result" are you asking to have explained?
 
  • #39


A visual perhaps?
Time constant for internode is, at least, 120 longer in that case.
 

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  • #40
granpa said:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?act=Q&ID=102572102
You're right. Normally a cylindrical capacitor must be computed that way but biologists do not.
http://butler.cc.tut.fi/~malmivuo/bem/bembook/21/21.htm
It does not change the length segment problem.
 

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  • #41


somasimple said:
A visual perhaps?
Time constant for internode is, at least, 120 longer in that case.

somasimple said:
It does not change the length segment problem.

Time constant~RC, so if you include R (membrane resistance)?
 
  • #42
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  • #44


atyy said:
Yes, myelin allows the total capacitance of an internode and a node to be roughly the same even though the internode is ~1000 longer than the node.
Are you serious?
I do not contest... numbers.
 
  • #45


somasimple said:
Are you serious?
I do not contest... numbers.

Yes - but only "same order of magnitude" - Koch: Even though the length of the interaxial node is typically 1000 times larger than the node, its total capacitance has the same order of magnitude.

But Koch is talking about the frog axon: made up of 250 myelin layers
 
  • #46


atyy said:
Yes - but only "same order of magnitude" - Koch: Even though the length of the interaxial node is typically 1000 times larger than the node, its total capacitance has the same order of magnitude.
Someone is wrong: Is it Mathematics or Pr C Koch?:redface:
Edit: 250 turns does not change anything since 250 < 1000
 
  • #47


somasimple said:
Someone is wrong: Is it Mathematics or Pr C Koch?:redface:
Edit: 250 turns does not change anything since 250 < 1000

Order of magnitude means correct to within a factor of <10 (I usually think ~3-4)

So I think we need better numbers, and from the same species - not some squid, some frog, and some rabbit ...

Edit: not squid - that's not myelinated :redface:
 
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  • #48


atyy said:
Order of magnitude means correct to within a factor of <10 (I usually think ~3-4)
But Rm varies inversely to Cm and they are linked...
You may test a simple linear function:
Rm=f(C)=-a(C)+b
 
  • #49


somasimple said:
But Rm varies inversely to Cm and they are linked...
You may test a simple linear function:
Rm=f(C)=-a(C)+b
Yes, that's why I said:
atyy said:
Edit: But there is something very fishy with this explanation. Time constant Tm~RmCm. What's the point of decreasing Cm, but increasing Rm by the same amount?

Edit: Another part of the puzzle. Space constant Lm~Rm/Ra

There are other equations in Koch's book where Cm enters, for example in the frequency-dependent length constant, but it always enters in the combination RmCm, so if the primary job of myelin is to change capacitance, I don't see how it affects anything.

That's why I was thinking about the length constant (frequency-independent component) ~Rm/Ra, where Ra is the axial resistance. The length constant determines how signals decay over distance, so to conduct in the internode where sodium channels are low, and signals cannot be actively boosted, the length constant has to be increased, perhaps by increasing Rm with myelination. Unfortunately, this increases the time constant ~RmCm - unless you decrease the capacitance by the same amount, which I think myelin does. However, most expositions do not feature the length constant, and they also say that the job of myelin is to increase the time constant, not to keep it the same. So I don't understand what's going on.
 
  • #50


Atyy said:
That's why I was thinking about the length constant (frequency-independent component) ~Rm/Ra, where Ra is the axial resistance.
If you reject Cm then you reject the whole theory...
Atyy said:
So I don't understand what's going on.
I do... but I can't say anything on this site without being thunder lightened by modos.
 
  • #51


somasimple said:
If you reject Cm then you reject the whole theory...

Yes, and no. I think the decrease in Cm is required to offset the increase in Rm, so that the time constant remains the same. There are no outright contradictions between what I'm saying and the standard explanations. BUT there are enough differences in emphasis that I should look at the equations carefully and see whether the apparent lack of contradiction between the two explanations is due to a real similarity in the underlying mathematics, or just due to chance. But those details are not in Koch's book.

somasimple said:
I do... but I can't say anything on this site without being thunder lightened by modos.

Maybe to be careful, you should say "at least one modo (singular)". :smile:
 
  • #52


atyy said:
Maybe to be careful, you should say "at least one modo (singular)". :smile:
I can't. It is out of my capacitance and resistance.:smile:
 
  • #53


somasimple said:
I can't. It is out of my capacitance and resistance.:smile:
:smile::smile::smile:
 
  • #54


atyy said:
Order of magnitude means correct to within a factor of <10 (I usually think ~3-4)
with the function:
The minimal value found with 250 turns is a Time Constant that is multiplied by a factor 20.
the worst is... 1250
 

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