Navigating the Tensions in Ukraine: A Scientific Perspective

[DennisN]

Swedish port workers are considering taking actions on their own with regards to Russian shipment...

Source (Swedish only): https://www.nyteknik.se/fordon/hamnarbetare-vill-stoppa-ryska-fartyg-hotar-med-blockad-7030393 (Ny Teknik, 17 March 2022)

Some quotes, quickly translated with Google translate:

The Swedish Port Workers' Union wants to stop Russian ships from Swedish ports and is threatening a blockade and will act even before the notice has passed. "There is a very strong opinion among our members that they do not want to deal with these ships and cargo," says Erik Helgeson, vice chairman of the Swedish Port Workers' Union.

[...]

The issue is currently being discussed internally within the EU, but there is still no clear answer to the issue. Tomas Eneroth emphasizes the importance of a joint decision being taken at EU level.

- The strength of the sanctions against Russia is based on the EU acting together, it would be unfortunate to break the agreement we have in the EU, he says.

What do you think about the union now acting on its own?

- Of course, it is important to have a strong commitment to the people of Ukraine. There is also nothing that prevents the Port Workers' Union to act, the government can not prevent that, says Tomas Eneroth.

[...]

 

[DennisN]

Some more comments on Putin's recent fascist/Stalinist speech (my words, again):
(among other things, they reference Fiona Hill)

Reaction To Putin’s Latest Press Conference | Zerlina. (MSNBC, March 18, 2022)

In Vladimir Putin’s recent press conference, he made some interesting statements and claims. Democratic Strategist Aaron Parnas and Jeffrey Edmonds join Zerlina Maxwell to react.

 

[Jarvis323]

Here is a somewhat anecdotal assessment of reasons for Putin's political moves, not sure whether it's real but thought we might need a break from heated debates about how the world will end... or not

I don't think it's anything to be self conscious about being short. And besides, Churchill was only 5'6''/167.6 cm. Then again, Putin looks like he is wearing high heels in this photo. I wonder if without those heels he would be closer to Ahmadinejad?

Anyways, it is a little embarrassing (for him at least) for a world leader to walk around in secret very high heels. But what this really tells me about him is that he isn't that intelligent (of course people are going to notice and then he is going to be 10 times more embarrassed), and his emotions get the best of him (leading him to do stupid things).

Now, he is angry as hell and desperate. He has his reputation as a competent war wager at stake (pride and fear of embarrassment), his life at stake more than ever (fear of death or being overthrown), and there have probably been more insults thrown at him in the last month than he has had in his entire life. So I would venture to say Putin is likely to act irrationally (not act rationally as a brutal dictator, but actually unintelligent/unwise and irrational in the pure sense). Hitler also succumbed to irrational behavior toward the end of WW2, which is a large factor in his defeat (e.g. sending the bulk of his troupes off ill equipped and into snow storms to fight the Russians).

It's a double edged sword. The more Putin's negative emotions become charged, the more mistakes he'll make, but he also has weapons of mass destruction at his disposal (and that might be more than just nukes) that he'll be more likely to use. It's a potentially very dangerous situation.

Maybe what could help would be if whichever people he looks up to the most, and various world leaders, gave him some kind of counseling or talk (like Arnold's) trying to let him know that it's ok to admit defeat, and we'd respect him even more for it. Similarly they could tell him it's ok to be short and we would respect him more if he just took them off or went public about them (although that should be saved for another time lol).

 

[Rive]

That's only a small part of Russia's problem. It actually makes their logistics problem worse.

On the other hand, once they starting to lose and get closer to their home borders, their logistics will improve fast. Also, at the end of spring the lands will dry.

So, Ukraine can't get them completely out and they have a deadline too.

Putin needs to go, otherwise this will get even more nasty very fast

 

[artis]

Maybe what could help would be if whichever people he looks up to the most, and various world leaders, gave him some kind of counseling or talk (like Arnold's) trying to let him know that it's ok to admit defeat, and we'd respect him even more for it. Similarly they could tell him it's ok to be short and we would respect him more if he just took them off or went public about them (although that should be saved for another time lol)

I think viewing Putin as some sort of a kid who is now so emotional over his mistakes that he needs counseling is both a mistake, because I don't think that is what is happening and it is also insulting to the people who have lost their loved ones and families.

Contrary to what other members here have said I don't think Putin is crazy or with mental deficiencies or in need of a "safe space", nor do I think he needs a "comfort animal" or anxiety pills, I think he needs some good old a$$ whoopin which he has never got as it seems.

Make no mistake his actions are calculated and premeditated and any current irrational behavior or overly aggressive posture is simply an indirect acknowledgment that he knows the war is not going his way.
It's like the gypsy man who asked me for cigarettes once only to find out I don't smoke, then he suddenly needed a phone to call, and some money for a train. One thing leads to another with Putin but their all part of a plan.

 

[artis]

Speaking of "results" it seems like the combination of poor field performance combined with sanctions and universal hatred towards his actions has brought some promising prospects in the recent Putin call with Turkey's Recep Tayyip Erdogan
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754

​

 

[artis]

And some humor, this is Canada's UN mission response to a Russian proposal

 

[Jarvis323]

I think viewing Putin as some sort of a kid who is now so emotional over his mistakes that he needs counseling is both a mistake,

But how do you explain the high heels?

because I don't think that is what is happening and it is also insulting to the people who have lost their loved ones and families.

I don't get your point. It's a general truth that he would be more respected overall if he were to stop/give up when he has failed (or wear normal shoes once everyone knows he's secretly wearing heels). This is a truth he is blinded to, because he is obsessed with never yielding, even to the point of extreme irrationality. I'm not saying it is possible to get through to him. But if it could be done, then it might save many many lives.

Make no mistake his actions are calculated and premeditated and any current irrational behavior or overly aggressive posture is simply an indirect acknowledgment that he knows the war is not going his way.

His action to wear ridiculous high heels was calculated. Calculated, but silly and stupid. His decision to invade Ukraine was calculated but stupid. Sure things have gone is way in the past, but not through intelligence, through brutality. He's assassinated his competition, and invaded weaker countries and territories. He's corrupted his government and pillaged his people. I would challenge you to point to anything he's done which shows true intelligence.

Thank God the west has finally woken up from their "woke" paradise and realized the world is still an evil place and some people understand only "tough" language. I hope this brings results.

I thought I remember you criticizing the west for its aggression in the past. Now you're acting as if they finally became "tough". The US has basically been probably the "toughest" active military force on the planet since WW2, only perhaps surpassed recently by Russia. And in terms of "wokeness", it was the conservative politicians, including the previous Republican president, who were advocating leaving NATO and leaving the Baltic nations to fend for themselves while getting friendly with Putin. Meanwhile, his first (centrist I guess) Democrat opponent (Hillary Clinton) might be even as aggressive militarily as Putin is.

 

[Oldman too]

Thank God the west has finally woken up from their "woke" paradise and realized the world is still an evil place and some people understand only "tough" language. I hope this brings results.

Hi Artis, I was thinking that maybe your use of "woke" might have been misapplied here, not sure how its construed in Europe but here in the U.S. it, means among other things, well... https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/woke-meaning-origin , it can also be a "political football" but as they say "The ambiguity is the essence" so it's a somewhat loaded term, or not, depending on whom one is addressing.

Jarvis, in his last paragraph pretty much "hit the nail on the head".

 

[pinball1970]

Hope springs eternal ...

There is talk of steroids and Chemotherapy. Parkinson's and or cancer, no idea if there is any truth to that. If he is I'll thinks he may die in the next 12 months or so i don't think that is a good scenario for his decision making. Not so much the mental impairment, more the 'i have nothing to lose,' mentality.

 

[pinball1970]

Speaking of "results" it seems like the combination of poor field performance combined with sanctions and universal hatred towards his actions has brought some promising prospects in the recent Putin call with Turkey's Recep Tayyip Erdogan
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60785754

​

I have just read this. This seems promising?

 

[DennisN]

An interview with the Russian TV employee who put a crack in the Kremlin propaganda machine.
Among other things she talks about how she did it, why she did it, and also about brainwashing and a split support of the war inside Russia (ca 50/50 she says).

'My life has changed irrevocably': Russian journalist who crashed live TV broadcast (CNN, Mar 17, 2022)

Marina Ovsyannikova, the Russian state TV employee who protested the war in Ukraine during a live news broadcast, speaks to CNN's Christiane Amanpour in her first major television interview since her protest.

 

[artis]

But how do you explain the high heels?

Truth be told I put that video as a joke here. I don't know nor do I have the sources to know whether that is true. It could be AI video software editing or it could be true, if it's true, well all people have insecurities. I have mine but I don't justify my resulting bad actions with them.

I don't get your point. It's a general truth that he would be more respected overall if he were to stop/give up when he has failed (or wear normal shoes once everyone knows he's secretly wearing heels). This is a truth he is blinded to, because he is obsessed with never yielding, even to the point of extreme irrationality. I'm not saying it is possible to get through to him. But if it could be done, then it might save many many lives.

You could be right but if history is any measure I think that would be a futile attempt. I'm sure many mass murderers or murderers in general also had severe psychological problems that contributed to their actions but do we try to comfort them in order to stop their actions or do we arrest them/ stop them by force and then figure out what to do?
I personally am not convinced a softer and forthcoming relationship with Putin would make stark difference in the long term, because that would imply he would completely change course and give up all his ambitions if that were the case and I personally don't believe that, if anything he would use that for his personal benefit as he has done so before. It's like trying to talk your way out of a speeding ticket with a "law and order" type policeman, no approach will succeed for someone who is determined on his path.

His action to wear ridiculous high heels was calculated. Calculated, but silly and stupid. His decision to invade Ukraine was calculated but stupid. Sure things have gone is way in the past, but not through intelligence, through brutality. He's assassinated his competition, and invaded weaker countries and territories. He's corrupted his government and pillaged his people. I would challenge you to point to anything he's done which shows true intelligence.

Again I don't know about the heels part , can't really comment, as for Ukraine , well it may seem stupid but there was a real plan that would have benefited him if it succeeded, can call it evil but not sure whether it is stupid.
The assassinations also benefited him, I think it's easy to see. If your goal is to become the only ruler in town then you have to get rid of your opposition, so far I don't see much inconsistency.
I think you are confusing good with intelligent, evil can also be intelligent, just the result is different.
Some of the biggest oligarchs here got their money through ill ways , often including assassinations and bribery. They are very smart. It takes a lot of planning and thinking to get away with so many broken laws.

I thought I remember you criticizing the west for its aggression in the past. Now you're acting as if they finally became "tough".

True, I did that, but when I said this I thought it in a specific context , namely that of policy towards China and Russia. I still hold my position in that I don't like expansionist policy neither from west or east. I don't think it is possible or viable and wise to accept every country along the Russian border in NATO. It may look nice on paper but it's not doable in a real sense. I got some "heat" (more like hate) for these comments here before although not sure why.
That being said I also don't believe that not being in NATO is an excuse for some aggressor to come in and use the situation. Taiwan is also not in NATO nor have there been any real plans or even talks of accepting it in NATO, but that doesn't mean Taiwan is "up for grabs" to the strongest bidder.
Even more so Ukraine had already a treaty guaranteeing it's territorial sovereignty , had it any effect ?
My particular criticism would be that this wasn't a surprise attack, Russia pretty much signaled it's intentions as far back as 2014 with the "little green men" and Donbas and Crimea. Back then EU and US did next to nothing, which probably contributed to the current escalation.

I don't know whether Ukraine in NATO would have helped to avoid this situation or instead made a Russian attack sooner and their fulfillment of their threats more realistic, and it seems that now they will reach a "deal" that could have been done long before where Ukraine doesn't join NATO but Russia is forbidden to interfere in their sovereign territory.
As for soft power interference , well NATO doesn't solve that, Baltics are in NATO and Russia meddles politically as if nothing changes.

So to sum up what I believe , if anyone has the time or cares to read, I believe in peace but achieved taking into account the particular peculiarities of certain regions. Sure ideally I would also say that Ukraine can go for whatever they wish, be it NATO, EU, Mars etc but realistically there are compromises, this war could have been avoided most likely with stronger policy, sanctions in the past towards Russian previous aggression and meanwhile recognizing that Ukraine has to stay neutral without joining NATO but asking that the Russians agree that if this is achieved that they cannot interfere in Ukraine and if they do like they just did then Ukraine reserves the option to have NATO troops fighting on their behalf as foreign military aid. Honestly we have come close to this anyway now, so what's the difference?

And in terms of "wokeness", it was the conservative politicians, including the previous Republican president, who were advocating leaving NATO and leaving the Baltic nations to fend for themselves while getting friendly with Putin. Meanwhile, his first (centrist I guess) Democrat opponent (Hillary Clinton) might be even as aggressive militarily as Putin is.

I agree , Trump made some weird foreign policy moves that got us rather worried and infuriated here in Baltics. On the other hand I don't think Hillary would have been better, being too nice with Putin runs the risk of him getting his way, but being too tough with him runs the risk of actually making WW3.
So far I must said Biden has been manageable , maybe bit slow but fine.
But this is not about US politicians as much as it is about the idea to have certain red lines and agreed upon rules that don't necessarily involve having a particular country within a particular union. Sweden or Finland isn't in NATO, does that mean we should tolerate any Russian advances towards them?
We did tolerate just that with Ukraine back in 2014...

Hi Artis, I was thinking that maybe your use of "woke" might have been misapplied here, not sure how its construed in Europe but here in the U.S. it, means among other things, well... https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/woke-meaning-origin , it can also be a "political football" but as they say "The ambiguity is the essence" so it's a somewhat loaded term, or not, depending on whom one is addressing

Hi, nice to hear your comment, I agree @Oldman too I most likely made a mistake, this word is "loaded" , powerful but loaded and easy to get enemies using it.
That being said my points about US companies and certain politicians having very "apologetic and apologizing" attitude towards rivals like China I believe is on point. Much like the example of John Cena apologizing in mandarin for daring to call Taiwan a country. I wonder would he also do it if China invaded Taiwan like Russia did with Ukraine.

 

[Astronuc]

Marina Ovsyannikova,

Very brave woman.

Mayor Vitalia Klitschko on Russia's claim of not targeting/attacking civilians, and interview with his brother, former boxing champion, Wladimir Klitschko, about the war.

 

[phinds]

I just now realized I made a funny mistake.

I'll bet Gorbachev wouldn't think it's funny (if he were a PF member)

 

[artis]

I'll bet Gorbachev wouldn't think it's funny (if he were a PF member)

He would have reported me to the PFburo which would denounce me.

 

[neilparker62]

if instead of the previous 'reset' Putin had got an adequate response the present war would not have happened

Yes - this is all too well chronicled in GK's book "Winter is Coming" ! You read some paragraphs about the "invasion of Ukraine" and you'd think he was talking right now about the current crisis. Then of course you realize he's referring to the Crimean takeover and the book was written several years ago.

I hope Russia will ultimately find it's own 'reset' on this disaster. Wiser heads would surely realize that Russian speaking kith and kin in Ukraine are far more easily kept 'in the fold' by diplomatic means rather than by the sledgehammer type tactics currently being employed!

 

[artis]

This is how sanctions this tough look in action combined with the natural fear of not being prepared for the worst, a bunch of Russian "babushkas" fighting over sugar.


Even here in the Baltics when the war started people out of their natural tendency for fear stocked up basic survival food like rice, oil, bread and sugar, salt. There were days when I went to store and there was no sugar in shelve. A weird scene.
Then I go to FB marketplace and some are speculating selling sugar four double the price...
Glad I'm cool and so far don't fear so I just decided to wait for new sugar boxes to arrive. Social ramifications of war much like the waves of an earthquake are felt far away

 

[bob012345]

Any realistic chance president Zelensky could convince the Russian backing regions of Ukraine that they are better off in a loose confederation with Ukraine than as part of Russia under Putin? That would be quite an accomplishment.

 

[bob012345]

This is how sanctions this tough look in action combined with the natural fear of not being prepared for the worst, a bunch of Russian "babushkas" fighting over sugar.


Even here in the Baltics when the war started people out of their natural tendency for fear stocked up basic survival food like rice, oil, bread and sugar, salt. There were days when I went to store and there was no sugar in shelve. A weird scene.
Then I go to FB marketplace and some are speculating selling sugar four double the price...
Glad I'm cool and so far don't fear so I just decided to wait for new sugar boxes to arrive. Social ramifications of war much like the waves of an earthquake are felt far away

Which country are you in? I have been to beautiful Tallinn, Estonia a few years ago.

 

[artis]

Which country are you in? I have been to beautiful Tallin, Estonia a few years ago.

I'm in Latvia, capital Riga. Yes Tallinn is lovely

 

[Jarvis323]

I personally am not convinced a softer and forthcoming relationship with Putin would make stark difference in the long term, because that would imply he would completely change course and give up all his ambitions if that were the case and I personally don't believe that, if anything he would use that for his personal benefit as he has done so before.

You've confused my point. The point is Putin should wake up to the fact that respect can be earned through honesty, humility, and compassion, and that one can admit failure and give in (when it is the intelligent thing to do) and still maintain respect.

Communicating that has little to do with with how soft you are on him.

That being said my points about US companies and certain politicians having very "apologetic and apologizing" attitude towards rivals like China I believe is on point. Much like the example of John Cena apologizing in mandarin for daring to call Taiwan a country. I wonder would he also do it if China invaded Taiwan like Russia did with Ukraine.

This is nearly the opposite of wokeness as it's understood in the West. Wokeness, as it's been used where I live, was origionally most often related to activism against corruption, war, economic policy, social norms, oppression and inequality based on race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or nationality, as well as environmentalism, etc. This, in combination with an idea that people have been lied to, manipulated, or conditioned to see these issues in an innacurate way or from a distorted perspective.

After the birth of the age of social media, together with some controversial movements and opinions, and extremely polarized politics, wokeness came to become a slur used by more conservative or right leaning people and politians who would point out elements which were ripe for ridicule and dislike from their audiences. And then it became a tactic to paint the opposition party and constituents as all being the same "woke" (as a slur) group of people accordingly, and also a tool to turn people away from all sorts of activism through association, conflation, and ridicule, or by seeding conspiracy theories.

Anyway, like I said, for whatever reason, it has actually been the people who are being called woke, here, who have been toughest with Russia in recent times. Probably, partly, because standing up to fascists and dictators and human rights violations are major areas of activism. Other politicians, recently the ones who are enemies of the woke, have instead been thinking from a more selfish point of view (America first), and making light of Putin's behavior and giving him a green light to do what he wants as long as it doesn't involve the US.

In terms of China, the "woke" have been against the xenophobia, nationalism, and racism that sprang from recent villification of China, more than anything. Politicians on the left have also been emphasing that effect in political battles with the right. Some on the left have also advocated against the trade wars that were started. There's a lot more to it still I guess.

Finally, the appologetics are not an example of wokeness in any sense I can imagine. Maybe you have a shallow perception of what "woke" people are like and how you expect them to behave.

In John Cena's case in particular, the fact he is speaking in Mandarin (which is not easy) shows he has some real relationship to the people of China, maybe personal interest along with the economic. He doesn't want to lose that. It has nothing to do with wokeness or softness, it is self interest.

 

[Jarvis323]

Any realistic chance president Zelensky could convince the Russian backing regions of Ukraine that they are better off in a loose confederation with Ukraine than as part of Russia under Putin? That would be quite an accomplishment.

From what I've read, the majority of people in those regions don't really care too much if they are part of Ukraine or Russia, they just want prosperity and peace.

 

[phinds]

From what I've read, the majority of people in those regions don't really care too much if they are part of Ukraine or Russia, they just want prosperity and peace.

Isn't that what everybody everywhere wants?

 

[bob012345]

Isn't that what everybody everywhere wants?

Perhaps in theory but functionally some people have very strange ideas about what that means and they want to impose their ideas on others who resist. For example, the Borg concept of peace and prosperity means you will be assimilated.

 

[Borg]

For example, the Borg concept of peace and prosperity means you will be assimilated.

Isn't that what everybody wants?

 

[phinds]

Perhaps in theory but functionally some people have very strange ideas about what that means and they want to impose their ideas on others who resist. For example, the Borg concept of peace and prosperity means you will be assimilated.

Good point.

 

[PeroK]

Isn't that what everybody everywhere wants?

It isn't. IMO, the 21st century is following the 20th as a battle between the human barbaric instinct and the human civilisation instinct. The Russian are engaged in pursuing a barbaric war that threatens both their peace and prosperity. And, it not just "zombified" Russians at home support the war. One of the world's greatest conductors, Valery Gergiev" has been forced to resign various positions because of his support for Putin. He worked for years in the West, no doubt became prosperous and saw a lot that was good about free western societies. Yet, he supports Putin and the war against Ukraine, apparently:

https://www.classicfm.com/artists/valery-gergiev/russian-conductor-putin-carnegie-hall/

 

[artis]

You've confused my point.

Yes I did confuse your point, now I got it.

This is nearly the opposite of wokeness as it's understood in the West

That was a very good summary of woke you wrote there. Indeed seems I have been lazy with using that word, lately due to all the social media, political barrage of new terms indeed it is easy to get confused.
I guess I could label myself closer to where hosts like Bill Maher are , as a liberal classic. I care for environment and peace but the nonsense that has taken hold lately to the point of denouncing basic science and biology seems crazy to me.

You have a good point about conservative politicians and support for foreign affairs. Indeed much has changed since Reagan which liked to poke the "bear" in the eye once in a while just to check it.
These days it seems that if given up to the harder conservative part of US they would not interfere in Ukraine affair at all. It's an open secret that NATO largely relies on US being in it.

 

[Borg]

That was a very good summary of woke you wrote there.

I think of the use of 'woke' these days as "You spoke out against something that I've been trying to hide so I'm going to ridicule you for it."

 

[neilparker62]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60794809

Well worth listening to especially against the family's historical background.

 

[neilparker62]

Any realistic chance president Zelensky could convince the Russian backing regions of Ukraine that they are better off in a loose confederation with Ukraine than as part of Russia under Putin? That would be quite an accomplishment.

A cheeky proposal Zelensky could put on the table would be a revival of the https://www.nti.org/education-center/treaties-and-regimes/commonwealth-independent-states-cis/#:~:text=Membership,Turkmenistan%2C%20Ukraine%2C%20and%20Uzbekistan.. Or has that become altogether irrelevant ?

 

[fresh_42]

There are Russian people who live in Finnland. Many because of marriage, some have holiday apartments, and others simply work there. Nothing special about it when you are neighbors.

I have seen a report among those Russians who are concerned, that they all of a sudden turn from being neighbors into being Russians. Btw., many of them organize help for the Ukrainian refugees.

No. What was terrifying is how they speak! There was a young couple, she was Russian and of course frequently has phone calls with her mother, their kid with her grandmother in Russia. And she is censoring herself and avoids certain topics and wordings because she fears about her mother at the other end of the line. This is a behavior I know very well from Ceaucescu's Romania. The hotel rooms had ears, the phone calls were taped, and you never knew who was friend or foe. Now, this is what Russia became: a stalinistic country!

 

[phinds]

Now, this is what Russia became: a stalinistic country!

Russians gave up real freedom under Putin for prosperity, which equates to Ben Franklin's "safety".

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Ben Franklin

And now the Russian have neither.

 

[fresh_42]

Ukraine's Kateryna Monsul will referee Inter Milan vs Sampdoria Genoa in the women's Serie A on Sunday at the invitation of the FIGC.

 

[wrobel]

“The Ukraine is the way the Russians referred to that part of the country during Soviet times

there is no article "the" in Russian. There are no articles in Russian at all

 

[wrobel]

And it is incorrect to refer to the Ukraine, even though a lot of people do it.

yes I saw it here many times and thought that I do not understand something in English

 

[DaveC426913]

there is no article "the" in Russian. There are no articles in Russian at all

It seems pretty complicated, yeah.

"...the Russian preposition в..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine#English_definite_article

 

[wrobel]

"...the Russian preposition в..."

Oh, now I see. That is an echo of that endless stupid dispute.
In Russian language it is a classic tradition to speak "на Украине" that means "in Ukraine" Literally "на" is translated as "on". The modern "politically correct" version is to speak "в Украине". Literally "в" is translated as "in".
Actually both prepositions do not mark any ideology or political position. I am native Russian speaker but I do not understand why for example we speak "студент учится на физтехе" (a student studies at Moscow Institute of Phys and Tech ) but simultaneously we speak "студент учится в МГУ" ( a student studies at Moscow State Univ.)
The same story is in Polish: they by the way use "на' for Ukraine.

 

[DennisN]

A recent interview with exiled Russian businessman Mikhail Khodorkovsky commenting on recent events.
He does not hold back in this interview... at all.
Among other things he calls Putin a Russian fascist, but there are many more things he talks about in the interview.

Beth Rigby Interviews... exiled Russian Mikhail Khodorkovsky (Sky News, 17th March 2022)

Sky News' Political Editor Beth Rigby sits down with exiled Russian businessman Mikhail Khodorkovsky who believes President Putin is a "thug" and "a Hitler".

 

[wrobel]

A recent interview with exiled Russian businessman Mikhail Khodorkovsky commenting on recent events.
He does not hold back in this interview... at all. Among other things he calls Putin a fascist, but there is far more things in the interview he talks about.

Beth Rigby Interviews... exiled Russian Mikhail Khodorkovsky (Sky News, 17th March 2022)

Sky News' Political Editor Beth Rigby sits down with exiled Russian businessman Mikhail Khodorkovsky who believes President Putin is a "thug" and "a Hitler".

That is nice:
"the uploader has not made this video available in your country"

 

[DennisN]

That is nice:
"the uploader has not made this video available in your country"

I'm sorry to hear that.

 

[wrobel]

I'm sorry to hear that.

I understand the sanctions but I think that the uploader is an idiot and he should go to Kremlin to get a medal

 

[StevieTNZ]

I understand the sanctions but I think that the uploader is an idiot and he should go to Kremlin to get a medal

It could simply be due to copyright reasons. A lot of videos available in NZ aren't available for viewing in the USA, for example.

 

[artis]

Here is the yesterday's Crimean annexation and Ukraine war celebration festivity in Moscow's Luzhniki stadium.
Putin even quotes the Bible at one moment, pretty "rich" for a event like this...
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60793319

For those that don't know - it's a ordinary practice in Russia and especially the former USSR to "volunteer" to attend such public gatherings if you work for a state company.
You can chose not to but then you might also chose to leave work and be unemployed , nothing is "mandatory" of course...

 

[Astronuc]

A recent interview with exiled Russian businessman Mikhail Khodorkovsky commenting on recent events.
He does not hold back in this interview... at all.

Some context to 2013/2014. Article published 3 Sep 2014
https://www.vox.com/2014/9/3/18088560/ukraine-everything-you-need-to-know

This all began as an internal Ukrainian crisis in November 2013, when President Viktor Yanukovych (pro-Russian) rejected a deal for greater integration with the European Union (here's why this was such a big deal), sparking mass protests, which Yanukovych attempted to put down violently. Russia backed Yanukovych in the crisis, while the US and Europe supported the protesters.

Since then, several big things have happened. In February, anti-government protests toppled the government and ran Yanukovych out of the country. Russia, trying to salvage its lost influence in Ukraine, invaded and annexed Crimea the next month. In April, pro-Russia separatist rebels began seizing territory in eastern Ukraine.

A lot of this comes down to Ukraine's centuries-long history of Russian domination. The country has been divided more or less evenly between Ukrainians who see Ukraine as part of Europe and those who see it as intrinsically linked to Russia. An internal political crisis over that disagreement may have been inevitable. Meanwhile, in Russia, Putin is pushing an imperial-revival, nationalist worldview that sees Ukraine as part of greater Russia — and as the victim of ever-encroaching Western hostility.

It appears unlikely that Ukraine will get Crimea back. It remains unclear whether Russian forces will try to annex parts of eastern Ukraine as well, how the fighting there will end, and what this means for the future of Ukraine — and for Putin's increasingly hostile but isolated Russia.

Well it is now clear that Putin would attack and will occupy Ukraine if permitted.

After Yanukovych, Oleksandr Turchynov was acting president in 2014 until Petro Poroshenko was sworn in as Ukrainian President on 7 June 2014. Poroshenko was president until 20 May 2019. Then Zelenskyy became president assuming office 20 May 2019.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Turchynov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petro_Poroshenko
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Zelenskyy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Ukraine#List_of_presidents

Russian invaded Crimea starting 20 February 2014 (Yanukovych was out of office on 22 February 2014), while the Ukrainian government was in turmoil. Russia annexed of Crimea on 18 March 2014. It's not clear how the US and EU (i.e., NATO) could have helped Ukraine, except by direct intervention with Russia and behalf of Ukraine, something that NATO is reluctant to do even now.

 

[Astronuc]

Prior to the current situation, an interview in Nov 2019 with former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev - BBC News.

 

[artis]

@Astronuc I like your interest and you seem to make lots of well thought posts.
As for your last ones, well the sad truth on the ground in Russia is that Gorbachev is among their least favorite politicians , I think we can understand at least one big reason for why that is...

I found this article rather realistic also from my own personal observations living here. Stalin only loses to Gorbachev in the Baltics... think about that, it says alot. And this is given Stalin terrorized Russians equally as people from other former republics. It almost feels like a weird form of the "Stockholm syndrome"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallm...s-than-gorbachev-infographic/?sh=23b5d9e21663

 

[DaveC426913]

Oh, now I see. That is an echo of that endless stupid dispute.

I'm not sure Ukranian citizens see it as stupid.
It's symbolic of Russia's conceit that Ukraine is and has been merely an extension of Russia. That kind of smarts in these times.

 

[Astronuc]

s for your last ones, well the sad truth on the ground in Russia is that Gorbachev is among their least favorite politicians , I think we can understand at least one big reason for why that is...

I understand the antipathy toward Gorbachev in Russia, but the reality, much was out of Gorbachev's hands, and there were so many others involved, including leaders in the west. I don't believe Gorbachev understood the chaos that would occur with the dissolution of the SU, or Yeltsin and the rise of the oligarchs, and ultimately Putin. Much of the suffering in Russia is self-inflicted, as is the case of most countries, especially in modern times.

It could have gone differently if the US and EU had supported Gorbachev. So-called experts in the west were caught off-guard when the SU collapsed. If not for the incompetent and corrupt populists, and kleptocrats, Russia could have been very successful on par with US, EU and China.

Russia needed visionaries like Boris Nemtsov, but he was murdered/assassinated "less than two days before he was due to take part in a peace rally against Russian involvement in the war in Ukraine and the financial crisis in Russia."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Nemtsov#Nemtsov's_fears

I'll continue the thought later, but I also don't want to drift off from the OP topic, Ukraine and the Russian invasion, and what comes next. But what happened from 1988-1992 is relevant to where we are now.