Navigating the Tensions in Ukraine: A Scientific Perspective

[wrobel]

It's symbolic of Russia's conceit that Ukraine is and has been merely an extension of Russia.

ok then the same must be true for Poland since this language uses the same preposition for the word Ukraine

 

[fresh_42]

ok then the same must be true for Poland since this language uses the same preposition for the word Ukraine

And I wouldn't be surprised if Sorbian, too.

 

[DaveC426913]

ok then the same must be true for Poland since this language uses the same preposition for the word Ukraine

Presumably,yes. And if there's a 1200 post thread about Poland here somewhere, point me at it.

 

[wrobel]

I'm not sure Ukranian citizens see it as stupid.
It's symbolic of Russia's conceit that Ukraine is and has been merely an extension of Russia. That kind of smarts in these times.

And may I ask you to be little bit more precise in formulations. The phrase "Putin's regime conceit that Ukraine is and has been merely an extension of Russia" is correct but if you want to say the same about Russia as a whole I have bad news for you: you are in the same boat with ... Hope you have got my idea.

 

[DaveC426913]

And may I ask you to be little bit more precise in formulations. The phrase "Putin's regime conceit that Ukraine is and has been merely an extension of Russia" is correct but if you want to say the same about Russia as a whole I have bad news for you: you are in the same boat with ... Hope you have got my idea.

Well, I took my cue from Time Magazine Online, to-wit:

“The Ukraine is the way the Russians referred to that part of the country during Soviet times..."

The implication is that Russia's conceit both subsumes and precedes Putin's.However, I think any further light you can shed on this widely confusing issue would benefit us all.

 

[wrobel]

The implication is that Russia's conceit both subsumes and precedes Putin's.

Russia is a country. A country can not experience conceit. A person or persons can. Please detail whom do you exactly mean by saying "Russia's conceit"?

 

[DaveC426913]

I concede and withdraw. Call Ukraine whatever suits you.
Also, I apologize for having apparently offended.

 

[fresh_42]

Russia is a country. A country can not experience conceit.

There is an essential difference between many countries in Europe, big ones like Russia, or smaller ones like Germany and Canada or the US. Subtract all European, Asian, and Latin migrations into North America after 1400 AC from North America and what is left is what we have in Europe: really many different people (tribes).

The continent hasn't been taken by conquerers, conquérants, and conquistadors as in America. The native tribes are still native tribes, mostly. This leads to an entirely different situation and understanding of the concept country. Here is a list of people who live in Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Russia
And e.g. an Ossetian doesn't consider himself as Russian. Russian is his second language. A Korean in San Francisco probably does consider himself an American. And even the 81% of Russians in Russia are hardly all of the same opinion or even Putin followers.

 

[Bandersnatch]

It's the same in Polish, yes. It's an issue of the register, rather than some hard and fast rule. By the virtue of which words it is commonly used with, the equivalent of 'on' registers somewhat more as denoting geographical regions, provinces, etc. rather than countries.

Considering how Poland (same as Russia) had in its history extended to parts of the territory of modern-day Ukraine, and there's some incendiary semi-recent history between the two that occasionally festers, the use of 'on' can be taken to be implicitly denigrating.

So 'in' has been preferred by speakers wanting to emphasise the independent statehood of Ukraine, or simply to show support.

The opposition to such changes comes almost universally from the language traditionalist/can't be bothered crowd, though - around here this linguistic titbit isn't really a battlefield of opposing ideas on Ukrainian independence. I suspect that's also where wrobel's exasperation at seeing this brought up comes from.

Of course, where the political status of a country is not as fraught, the traditional use of 'on' is seldom challenged - as with Slovakia, Lithuania, or Belarus.

 

[DennisN]

Twice-poisoned Putin critic makes prediction about Russian government (CNN, Mar 19, 2022)

Russian opposition politician Vladimir Kara-Murza speaks out about how Russia could possibly achieve regime change as the war in Ukraine continues.

 

[geordief]

Twice-poisoned Putin critic makes prediction about Russian government (CNN, Mar 19, 2022)

Russian opposition politician Vladimir Kara-Murza speaks out about how Russia could possibly achieve regime change as the war in Ukraine continues.

I listened to that but I didn't notice much "prediction about the Russian government " save to say that he advocated somehow breaching the wall of censorship around what the Russian public can be told by a free media.

 

[Astronuc]

My wife read to me a short news item, which I hope is only a rumor. I have not substantiated the story, but the allegation is that Russian forces are kidnapping and shipping Ukrainian citizens from Mariupol to Russian cities/towns. That is ethnic cleansing. If this is happening, NATO needs to gets its **** together and expel Russian forces or otherwise remove them. The west cannot wait for Russia to annex any more of Ukraine; instead Russia must forfeit all Ukrainian territory, and if need be, a buffer zone inside Russia.

 

[DennisN]

I listened to that but I didn't notice much "prediction about the Russian government " save to say that he advocated somehow breaching the wall of censorship around what the Russian public can be told by a free media.

I agree. I posted the interview because I think his opinions were interesting. I've been watching quite a lot of interviews with various Russians (both younger and older) since the invasion started, because I wanted to try to understand more about what was going on in the Russian society.

 

[DennisN]

My wife read to me a short news item, which I hope is only a rumor. I have not substantiated the story, but the allegation is that Russian forces are kidnapping and shipping Ukrainian citizens from Mariupol to Russian cities/towns.

I've heard about that too.

Two tweets about it here: EuroMaidan Press, The Kyiv Independent

It has also been mention in The Guardian's live feed (under the header "Mariupol City Council says residents are being taken to Russia (22:11)"): The Guardian live feed.

 

[geordief]

I have been hearing about sabotage occurring in Belarus hampering logistics wrt supplying Russian forces,presumably around Kiev(,a Twitter feed from the main opposition party there apparently)

Seems like a glimmer of hope,(I hope there is some substance to this)

 

[geordief]

I've heard about that too.

Two tweets about it here: EuroMaidan Press, The Kyiv Independent

It has also been mention in The Guardian's live feed (under the header "Mariupol City Council says residents are being taken to Russia (22:11)"): The Guardian live feed.

Presumably justified along the lines of evacuating them for their own safety

As Trump would say "genius"

 

[Astronuc]

Presumably justified along the lines of evacuating them for their own safety

That would be the Russian line.

I suspect Russia will depopulate E. Ukraine of native population, and replace with Russians and pro-Russian Ukrainians.

 

[Scott Scott]

I'm really worried that the situation in Ukraine could result in a war between the US and Russia. Any thoughts?

It could if we interfere or if Putin is forced to use nuclear weapons. Putin figured this whole thing prior to launching his attack in a geopolitical sense; he knew that however much the Western alliance could howl and twist and turn from outrage, there was nothing they could do to avoid Ukraine getting a pummeling from Russia because they had no alliance with Ukraine. He COUNTED on a STABLE sequence of predictable circumstances and on NATO not interfering if for no other reason than a nuclear war would result, but if things crumble militarily for Russia or if the US against all common sense decided to intervene in any way, the situation could become UNSTABLE unpredictable for all concerned. This risk is something Putin anticipated and he is running it probably closer than he would have liked. Because its the situational INSTABILITY that presents the opportunity for war between Russia and the US and the consequences that ensue. Or if Russia decides it needs to preemptively attack with NATO with nuclear weapons. He doesn't have general European war making capability without nuclear weapons.

 

[wrobel]

Of course, where the political status of a country is not as fraught, the traditional use of 'on' is seldom challenged - as with Slovakia, Lithuania, or Belarus.

For the words Lithuania or Belarus in Russian the preposition "in" is used traditionally (not "on" as for Ukraine). So there is no political explanation here again since the political status of Lithuania Belarus and Ukraine was the same. Just a language

 

[wrobel]

I suspect Russia will depopulate E. Ukraine of native population, and replace with Russians and pro-Russian Ukrainians

Ukraine is a too large cake to swallow it.

 

[artis]

I suspect Russia will depopulate E. Ukraine of native population, and replace with Russians and pro-Russian Ukrainians.

This is absolutely nothing new in the Kremlin's textbook.
Back during WW2 and later a second time in 1949 mass deportations took place within the USSR under Stalin.
All people deemed to be unfit for integration within a socialistic/communistic society or enemies of the state where put on secret lists , then one night a special operation by NKVD where agents with rifles rounded up in the middle of night all those on the lists in their homes and took them to the nearest train stations where a special train consisting of railcars used for animal transport picked them up, in the middle of winter.
Then those people had a 2 week non stop train journey to the farthest Russian east - Siberia.
The fragile and weak died within the train. To save space dead bodies were dumped along the tracks as the trained rolled along without stopping. My grandfather was among the passengers. He was lucky, he had skills and soon fought his way up the chain becoming the director of a local Siberian coal mine. The Russians appreciated his harsh temper for pushing the lazy workers to work harder producing more output which the communist bureaucrats enjoyed. This is as close as anyone ever got to "the survival of the fittest" by being on that "railroad to hell"
The only good thing he said was that in Siberia there were lots of natural resources you just had to have the strength to get them, lots of good animals - meat in the forest to hunt for, a never ending supply of wood and logs you just had to chop it, and soil full of nutrients in the summer, he said it was enough to just throw a potato in the soil and step on it , then later on it gave a plentiful harvest.

The provided picture in the link is very accurate , semi trucks used for transfer of dirt and rocks were used to transfer the gathered people to their trains which as I said consisted of "animal" cattle cars.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2018/10/28/stalin-deported-100000-ukrainians-to-siberia-and-kazakhstan-in-october-1947/

This is how those railcars looked back then , notice the 2 faces looking out through the upper ventilation hole

This is how that same type of car looks these days, stationed at a local station near the capital of my country.

Some trains looked like this.

Some resources for those interested

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union

https://www.rbth.com/history/333112-stalin-forced-relocation-nations

https://qirim.news/en/kryimskie-tat...tted-holodomor-and-crimean-tatar-deportation/

https://eng.lsm.lv/article/culture/history/latvia-marks-june-1941-deportations.a363676/

 

[PeroK]

My wife read to me a short news item, which I hope is only a rumor. I have not substantiated the story, but the allegation is that Russian forces are kidnapping and shipping Ukrainian citizens from Mariupol to Russian cities/towns. That is ethnic cleansing. If this is happening, NATO needs to gets its **** together and expel Russian forces or otherwise remove them. The west cannot wait for Russia to annex any more of Ukraine; instead Russia must forfeit all Ukrainian territory, and if need be, a buffer zone inside Russia.

Apart from the "miracle" of Putin being removed by a coup, this looks inevitable. A horror as great as anything the 20th Century threw up.

I would propose a complete and immediate embargo on all Russian oil and gas sales to Europe. If we to sit in the cold for a bit, that's nothing compared to the price the Ukrainians are paying.

 

[artis]

 

[neilparker62]

With respect you can give whatever history you like but the horrors of Mariupol already speak for themselves. Can we "justify" Stalin's excesses by pointing at Hitler ?

 

[neilparker62]

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/19/...kraine-international-space-station/index.html

Encouraging if indeed the Russian cosmonauts are putting across a subtle message to Mr Putin. All I can say is roll on ISS!

 

[fresh_42]

 

[Vanadium 50]

I would propose a complete and immediate embargo on all Russian oil and gas sales to Europe.

Can't be done. For years much of Europe has been hooked on Russian energy so they can pretend the are "Green" without having to go nuclear.

 

[PeroK]

Can't be done.

It could be done and would have to be done if Putin turned off the supply. It would be painful, of course.

 

[phinds]

I would propose a complete and immediate embargo on all Russian oil and gas sales to Europe. If we to sit in the cold for a bit, that's nothing compared to the price the Ukrainians are paying.

Yes, it would be less than Ukraine is paying but it is NOT just "sitting in the cold for a bit". European industry depends on Russian energy. You would do very severe economic damage to Europe which might be OK w/ you but is not likely to be OK with the average European or their governments.

 

[Astronuc]

It could be done and would have to be done if Putin turned off the supply.

That would be a national security concern. Take away the US/NATO. If Putin wanted to invade Europe, all he'd have to do is turn off the energy flow, and invade a week or two later.

Edit: Of course, one could argue that Putin wouldn't dare to that, just he wouldn't invade Ukraine - until he did.

 

[PeroK]

European industry depends on Russian energy.

Then Putin has that power over us in any case.

You would do very severe economic damage to Europe which might be OK w/ you but is not likely to be OK with the average European or their governments.

Possibly. But, if Putin has put nuclear war on the table, then we should have that option on the table.

 

[artis]

Then Putin has that power over us in any case.

And that is exactly what some experts have said since the 2000's.

Can't be done. For years much of Europe has been hooked on Russian energy so they can pretend the are "Green" without having to go nuclear.

Or worse yet, closing down existing nuclear that is still in perfect order and capable of working.
Germany is especially compromised with regards to energy import
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-warns-against-ban-on-energy-imports-from-russia/a-61002737

 

[Astronuc]

Purchase of energy and other commodities from Russia finances Putin's military buildup, which is interesting considering Putin would like to severely diminish the West (aka US and EU).

Putin’s Thousand-Year War
The reasons for his anti-Western enmity stretch back over Russia’s entire history—and they will be with us for a long time.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/12/putins-thousand-year-war/

Certainly, Putin is the main problem at the moment, but he's not the only one. There appear to be many who sympathize with his notions.

 

[PeroK]

Yes, it would be less than Ukraine is paying but it is NOT just "sitting in the cold for a bit". European industry depends on Russian energy. You would do very severe economic damage to Europe which might be OK w/ you but is not likely to be OK with the average European or their governments.

In truth you are probably right. On the other hand, all the countries of Eastern Europe face the risk of Russian occupation if Putin cannot be stopped. Even if NATO fights on their behalf, their countries will still be turned into war zones.

I hope I'm wrong, but doing without Russian energy at this stage might eventually seem like a minor sacrifice compared the calamity that may befall them.

 

[phinds]

In truth you are probably right. On the other hand, all the countries of Eastern Europe face the risk of Russian occupation if Putin cannot be stopped. Even if NATO fights on their behalf, their countries will still be turned into war zones.

I hope I'm wrong, but doing without Russian energy at this stage might eventually seem like a minor sacrifice compared the calamity that may befall them.

I agree w/ you but faced with short term hardship we humans don't seem to do well planning for future disasters. Kicking the can down the road is endemic to our American politicians and I can't see any reason to expect anything different from European ones.

 

[fresh_42]

 

[fresh_42]

Nazis finally found!

 

[DennisN]

An interesting interview with Russian-American journalist Masha Gessen:

Gessen: It’s A Matter Of Survival For Russians To Buy Into State TV Propaganda (MSNBC, Mar 19, 2022)

Vladimir Putin held a pro-war rally in Moscow Friday morning, feeding the Kremlin’s propaganda machine, as Russians continue to remain uninformed about their nation’s invasion of Ukraine. "It's a totalitarian society at this point,” journalist Masha Gessen explains to Joy Reid. “It is a matter of survival for Russians to buy into the picture of the universe that state television is broadcasting to them."



I've seen a long, in-depth, interview with Masha Gessen a couple of days ago which I also thought was very interesting:

The Putin Files: Masha Gessen (FrontLine PBS, Oct 26, 2017)

And another long interview which I've seen and found interesting was this one:

Putin's Road to War: Julia Ioffe (interview) (FrontLine PBS, Mar 10, 2022)

There are a number of FrontLine PBS interviews with different persons available on youtube on these topics. If anyone is interested, go to youtube and search for "The Putin Files" and "Putin's road to war".

 

[artis]

I couldn't decide whether to write this but finally decided to do so. Again before I write anything let me just say once more that "No, I don't excuse Russia's aggression with any of this and it's not my personal opinion"
So please read it as simple history.

I think there is a problem, arguably the only one that Russia can truly use (also twist and spin out of proportion) in their information war to excuse their actions. Now in order to not make this very lengthy let me just say that historically within the former USSR republics there was a non negligible fraction of people who had antisemitic and Nazi thinking. When I grew up I too was under the impression that my country as well as other eastern European countries have been only victims of both Russian and German imperialism, and that in itself is true, but there is a side they don't like to teach here in schools that much and it is the fact that during the German occupation in WW2 there were sizeable militias and units that voluntarily joined the Nazi effort to exterminate Jews and other minorities. But they were not just spontaneous action-reaction forces but instead a historical sentiment within certain groups in these regions that finally "surfaced" when the right circumstances were met.

In fact many historians argue that the German execution of Jews both within the Baltics as well as in Ukraine could have only been so successful because of considerable "local help". This is also confirmed by the holocaust survivor memories.
I myself started researching more of this when I befriended some older Jews who had lived here all their life.
Among other sources, I read this book "I survived Rumbuli" written by one local woman who survived in the mass extermination of the Riga ghetto by Nazi forces with local help, about 27 000 Jews including children and elders were shot and buried in a mass grave near the capital of Latvia - Riga.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frida_Michelson
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0896040305/?tag=pfamazon01-20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riga_Ghetto

Probably one of the most shameful parts of our national history is know internationally as the "Arajs Kommando" Named after it's founder and main man "Viktors Arājs".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arajs_Kommando

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Latvia

not everyone participated directly while holding a gun to someone's head, but many more did collaborate indirectly by snitching on Jewish hideouts, giving money and materials to the nationalistic teams of SS helpers who directly sought out and shot Jews. This is all beautifully written down by the woman who wrote the memoirs to which i linked in this post.

So why am I writing this, and what has it to do with Ukraine?
Two fold, first this fate is shared similarly also in Ukraine and secondly this is the only real "issue" which Russia can use to excuse their war, so for us to understand better what exactly they base their claims off let me show you.

Let's start with some of the most known examples.
There was a Ukrainian nationalist Stepan Bandera during the times leading up to WW2 , Russian forces call Ukrainian fighters "Banderovites" I hope you will soon understand why.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

Bandera remains a highly controversial figure in Ukraine,[22][23][24] with some Ukrainians hailing him as a liberator who fought against the Soviet, Polish and Nazi states while trying to establish an independent Ukraine, while other Ukrainians as well as Poland and Russia condemn him as a fascist[25] and a war criminal[26] who was, together with his followers, largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[27] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine

So what Ukraine did , which I think was a mistake on their behalf, their previous president Viktor Yushchenko gave Stepan Bandera a posthumous award and declared Bandera a hero.
https://www.rferl.org/a/Yushchenko_...troversial_Ukrainian_Nationalist/1937123.html

The reason I think this was a huge mistake and played right into the hands of Moscow is because Bandera had a tainted past, yes I believe he fought with Ukraine in mind and against Soviets and Germans but from historical sources we know his allegiances were more towards nationalism in the German Nazi sense.
This would be similar if we here in Latvia decided to award and title a hero one of our own war criminals who collaborated with the Nazi regime to exterminate Jews.
The next president revoked the award.
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/13/world/europe/13ukraine.html

To make matters worse, Ukraine has official monuments to Stepan Bandera, one you can google is located in the city that is now the last resort for refugees - Lviv.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukrai...borator-bans-book-critical-of-pogroms-leader/Now another mistake I think is to allow a far right extremist paramilitary force known as the "Azov battalion" to fight along side Ukraine's army and national guard forces. Even more so because the Azov fighters are not that many as compared to the army in general and wouldn't be a decisive factor for either losing or winning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Besides their Nazi like insignia, here are just a few excerpts from what can be labeled as Nazi sympathizing and "crazy talk" I suggest these links for reading their are rather telling.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

"I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia," said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. "But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew."

https://www.dw.com/en/the-azov-battalion-extremists-defending-mariupol/a-61151151

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

A few months after recapturing the strategic port city of Mariupol from the Russian-backed separatists, the unit was officially integrated into the National Guard of Ukraine on November 12, 2014, and exacted high praise from then-President Petro Poroshenko.“These are our best warriors,” he said at an awards ceremony in 2014. “Our best volunteers.”

The unit was led by Andriy Biletsky, who served as the the leader of both the Patriot of Ukraine (founded in 2005) and the SNA (founded in 2008). The SNA is known to have carried out attacks on minority groups in Ukraine.
In 2010, Biletsky said Ukraine’s national purpose was to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen [inferior races]”.Biletsky was elected to parliament in 2014. He left Azov as elected officials cannot be in the military or police force. He remained an MP until 2019.

“Ukraine is the world’s only nation to have a neo-Nazi formation in its armed forces,” a correspondent for the US-based magazine, the Nation, wrote in 2019.

In June 2015, both Canada and the United States announced that their own forces will not support or train the Azov regiment, citing its neo-Nazi connections. In October 2019, 40 members of the US Congress led by Representative Max Rose signed a letter unsuccessfully calling for the US State Department to designate Azov as a “foreign terrorist organisation” (FTO)

Here is a video of one of the Azov Children's camps, see if you can spot some of the tattoos like "white pride"
I could go on and on and on about this both from a historical perspective as well as current one, there is plenty of subject matter here. All I can say is I think the Ukrainians have themselves made some bad decisions and mistakes that have played perfectly into the propaganda of Kremlin about Nazi supporters in Ukraine.
Truth be told Ukraine is the only known European country to have an officially recognized militia made up of Nazi supporters that fights along side their national army.

Even currently I can understand the anger in Ukrainian fighters against the aggressor forces but some of their remarks are I think needlessly inflammatory. Like the recent video of Azov battalion fighters greasing their AK bullets in pig fat to shoot Chechen fighters. The idea here is simple, most Chechens are Muslims and Muslims consider pigs unclean.


Meanwhile the deputy mayor of Dnipro said that dead Chechen fighters will be put into pig skins and buried like that
https://odessa-journal.com/ukraine-prepared-a-surprise-for-kadyrovites/Now do I excuse Russian war and aggression with this in any way? No I don't and nobody could, apart from Putin of course. And Russia has plenty of supporters for their own war criminals and terrorists like Stalin and his gang. All I'm saying is that Ukraine could have done better which would give even less material for Moscow to use.
To finish off let me give you an interesting bit of history from the Baltics. Among the many nationalistic organizations in pre WW2 Latvia there was one that was the most popular. It was called the "Thundercross"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pērkonkrusts

Some followers tried to resurrect the organization after the collapse of the USSR in the 90's and in 1997 made an explosive with which they tried to blow up a local WW2 monument that symbolized the fallen soldiers of Soviet Union from WW2.
Thankfully our security organizations took care of them and Russia cannot say that we harbor Neo Nazi's, this also gives us greater leverage to call out Russian attacks as nothing but Russian imperialist aggression because we have eliminated largely any opportunity for Russia to claim that we support Nazi ideology. Ukraine should have done the same it would have benefit them.Some interesting takes on Azov






You can hear the women in the end saying that one of the reasons some support these movements are because even after 2014 Maidan ousting of the pro Russian government corruption is still large.

And one other important aspect to mention for why such private militias can arise is that Ukraine before the current events and especially before 2014 had a rather weak military and needed extra support to fight against the Russian separatists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine

Because of the Russian military intervention in Ukraine in 2014, the president commissioned the governors of oblasts of Ukraine to create volunteer units under the government's Territorial Defense Forces. Initially, these units received minimal funding from regional budgets and mostly relied on donations. In November 2014, most of the territorial defense battalions were integrated into the Ukrainian Ground Forces

Sure enough such a climate would be perfect for the birth of extremist organizations in any country so that is partly to blame.

 

[Frabjous]

Ukraine’s ”sin” was seeking stronger relations with the West. Even if it had followed your suggestions, Putin would have found another excuse.

 

[artis]

Ukraine’s ”sin” was seeking stronger relations with West. Even if it had followed your suggestions, Putin would have found another excuse.

Yes fundamentally I also believe Russia's war is based on geopolitical and socioeconomic ambitions.
But please don't take my post out of context because I never claim that the far right action in Ukraine is to blame and that Kremlin wouldn't have invaded anyway, I am simply trying to bring a multiple sided approach to understanding each side and the claims made.
My point was to show what Kremlin uses to base their "denazification" claims upon

 

[Frabjous]

Yes fundamentally I also believe Russia's war is based on geopolitical and socioeconomic ambitions.
But please don't take my post out of context because I never claim that the far right action in Ukraine is to blame and that Kremlin wouldn't have invaded anyway, I am simply trying to bring a multiple sided approach to understanding each side and the claims made.
My point was to show what Kremlin uses to base their "denazification" claims upon

To what end? Nazi’s are not why Putin invaded, so you are merely providing fuel to his false narrative. An openly Nazi Ukraine that was seeking stronger relations with Russia would not have been invaded.

 

[artis]

To what end? Nazi’s are not why Putin invaded, so you are merely providing fuel to his false narrative. An openly Nazi Ukraine that was seeking stronger relations with Russia would not have been invaded.

I am not providing any fuel to anything unless of course that is how you would like to think of it.
I explicitly stated that I am not writing my own opinion. I did provide a lot of official sources like Time,the Guardian, BBC, Al jazeera and historical accounts which are all factual and accurate history.
This is an intellectual discussion and I'm merely explaining a sensitive topic which is nevertheless true, let's not make any of this personal. I understand perfectly well that this is a historically "hot topic" but I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing it.

 

[Frabjous]

I am not providing any fuel to anything unless of course that is how you would like to think of it.
I explicitly stated that I am not writing my own opinion. I did provide a lot of official sources like Time,the Guardian, BBC, Al jazeera and historical accounts which are all factual and accurate history.
This is an intellectual discussion and I'm merely explaining a sensitive topic which is nevertheless true, let's not make any of this personal. I understand perfectly well that this is a historically "hot topic" but I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing it.

You agree that Ukranian Nazi’s are not the reason for the invasion.

Yes fundamentally I also believe Russia's war is based on geopolitical and socioeconomic ambitions

I do not understand why you cannot see that discussing Putin’s false narratives is in his interest. Their discussion gives them credence. This would not happen in a perfect world, but we have to accept that we do not live in one.

 

[artis]

I do not understand why you cannot see that discussing Putin’s false narratives is in his interest. The discussion gives them credence. This would not happen in a perfect world, but we have to accept that we do not live in one.

So just because a dictator uses certain historical and current facts to spin his own narrative to make an excuse for a bloody war , means I cannot discuss these facts anymore is that your point?

So if Putin tomorrow used holocaust as an excuse to invade Germany , would I then be forbidden to talk about holocaust and should rather shut up out of worries of giving him credence?
I believe in facts and truth and being able to freely talk them with anyone irrespective of whether some political leader or murderer is using them for his own benefit.

I on the other hand think it is exactly this fear of speaking truthfully that is partly killing some old democracies around the world, if we put emotions and narratives over truth then we are doomed to fail is what I think.
I condemn Russia's actions as much as the next guy here and they have a poor excuse for them, but I also condemn any militias supporting Nazi ideology irrespective of what their goal for fighting is.

 

[Haborix]

I'm not sure it is correct to say discussing Putin's false narratives is in his interest. Putin has an understanding of history, however twisted, from which he spins out a rationale. Wouldn't it be better to recognize that history and show that Putin's rationale is an extreme and unfounded extrapolation? Imagine you were someone within Russia who had heard Putin's rationale and you looked at the discussion in the West and it was completely silent. I think in those scenarios people draw inferences against the silent party. Anyway, the history @artis provided might suggest the ways in which to combat the rationale of Putin, even if his rationale is only a pretext.

 

[Frabjous]

So just because a dictator uses certain historical and current facts to spin his own narrative to make an excuse for a bloody war , means I cannot discuss these facts anymore is that your point?

So if Putin tomorrow used holocaust as an excuse to invade Germany , would I then be forbidden to talk about holocaust and should rather shut up out of worries of giving him credence?
I believe in facts and truth and being able to freely talk them with anyone irrespective of whether some political leader or murderer is using them for his own benefit.

I on the other hand think it is exactly this fear of speaking truthfully that is partly killing some old democracies around the world, if we put emotions and narratives over truth then we are doomed to fail is what I think.
I condemn Russia's actions as much as the next guy here and they have a poor excuse for them, but I also condemn any militias supporting Nazi ideology irrespective of what their goal for fighting is.

Where did I say that you cannot say what you want? All I said is that your choice of topics benefits Putin. Speaking truthfully means accepting the consequences of your words, and in this case means that I question your wisdom.

 

[artis]

Where did I say that you cannot say what you want? All I said is that your choice of topics benefits Putin. Speaking truthfully means accepting the consequences of your words, and in this case means that I question your wisdom.

Ok I accept your critique. I do doubt that a thread on PF will or can change a war between Russia and Ukraine.
And everybody already understands that this war is not about Nazi ideology.
I simply pointed out the fact that even though Putin lies , there is some truth mixed in as well.

As for consequences , I don't think I'm the one who should have them, instead the people who have made less then ideal decisions that have contributed to this conflict. But I get it as I said it's a hot potato nobody likes to see and therefore whoever dares to speak about it gets "labeled".

 

[Klystron]

This morning Monday 21 Mar 2022 Reuters updated articles on NATO defenses against invasion.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...raine-nato-looks-its-weakest-link-2022-03-21/

Baltic countries figure prominently in the calculus, particularly Latvia.

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelinskiy has warned that the Baltic states will be Russia's next target. The Baltic Sea is a large and busy shipping market for containers and other cargo, connecting Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Russia with the rest of the world.

Reuters also referenced NATO partner Germany's 'ageing Tornado' fleet, not in the sense as toothless but as less able to deploy across Europe as rapidly as newer airframes.

Soon after Russia's invasion, Berlin announced it would buy 35 Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jets from the United States to replace its ageing Tornado fleet.

NATO allies, especially US and UK, traditionally respond slowly at wars' beginning, but strengthen when threatened.

NATO allies have also moved five aircraft carriers into European waters, in Norway and the Mediterranean, increased the number of warplanes in the air in NATO airspace and more than doubled the size of the combat units in the Baltics and Poland. Host nation forces number some 290,000 in the region, but mainly under national control.

 

[neilparker62]

I'm not sure it is correct to say discussing Putin's false narratives is in his interest. Putin has an understanding of history, however twisted, from which he spins out a rationale. Wouldn't it be better to recognize that history and show that Putin's rationale is an extreme and unfounded extrapolation? Imagine you were someone within Russia who had heard Putin's rationale and you looked at the discussion in the West and it was completely silent. I think in those scenarios people draw inferences against the silent party. Anyway, the history @artis provided might suggest the ways in which to combat the rationale of Putin, even if his rationale is only a pretext.

I fully understand the sentiment that this historical information feeds into Mr Putin's narrative and if he seriously wanted us to believe him, why the ongoing indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets ? That said we can't hope to find resolution to as intractable a problem as this without all the necessary background information however unpalatable it may be.

On another tack altogether, I would call for a meeting between the respective First Ladies of Ukraine and Russia - albeit former First Lady in the case of Mr Putin. Surely good sense and shared family values can prevail against the current lunacy ?!