Navigating the Tensions in Ukraine: A Scientific Perspective

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The discussion centers on the complexities and potential consequences of the ongoing tensions in Ukraine, drawing parallels to historical conflicts. Participants express concerns about the motivations behind Putin's actions, suggesting he aims to expand Russian influence and possibly recreate aspects of the Soviet Union. The effectiveness of Western sanctions is debated, with skepticism about their impact on halting Russian aggression. There are fears that if the West does not respond decisively, the situation could escalate beyond Ukraine, potentially affecting other regions like Taiwan. Overall, the conversation highlights the precarious nature of international relations and the risks of underestimating authoritarian ambitions.
  • #851
Bcavender said:
At this point, I am having more of a hard time walking in Claus Schwabs' Shoes (and Fauci/Bill Gates as a close second).
How do Vladimir Putin's shoes feel to you?
 
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  • #852
snorkack said:
Plenty of East Europeans resented both National Socialists and Communists and found Communists the greater danger. So yes, a lot of people in East Europe supported the Nazis as the lesser evil... including some in Ukraine. Which, of course, Russians are eager to blow up.
The East Europeons were not the only with this mindset: The U.S. went completely overboard with the "anything goes in the name of anti communism": the support of the fascist governments in the Americas including overthrowing governments.Then Vietnam.
 
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  • #853
morrobay said:
the support of the fascist governments in the Americas
And similar in eastern Europe, Italy, Greece, Korea, ... (government or opposition).
 
  • #854
phinds said:
Seems like a more appropriate one would be Putin shooting the dove with an AK47
That would also be appropriate.
I interpreted the picture with the dove as Putin being annoyed by peace.
 
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  • #855
  • #856
PeroK said:
How do Vladimir Putin's shoes feel to you?
More to the point certainly!
 
  • #857
A couple days ago there was a survey in MIPT "Do you support the war". About 90% said "no"
Since that I have been thinking what must these "10%" have in their heads? I do not know.
 
  • #858
Keith_McClary said:
And similar in eastern Europe, Italy, Greece, Korea, ... (government or opposition).
Oh yes, I have an interesting little book of the famous Italian masonic lodge P2 actions and how they with some US covert influence organized all kinds of operations in Italy back in the 70's, 80's. You can also read about them on google. Anyway just goes to show that in strategic geopolitics the human life has little value.
This is not to excuse Kremlin politics but if we want to be fair we have to acknowledge everyone's crimes.

What @snorkack said about the WW2 and afterwards prejudice within the former USSR territory towards different ethnicities is very true indeed.
Given USSR won Germany, those who fought on the German side for whatever reason were basically cut out from society, they had no social benefits, were hard to find a job and were considered enemies of the state just as much as those that were too rich before the Soviet invasion.
And truth be told there were people who fought on the German side because they liked National socialism and shared antisemitic views.
The fact that we don't see that many of them today is simply because many share these views covertly and they only open up and act upon them when "the time is right" like it was during the Nazi invasion during WW2.
I could suggest certain books with regards to this, one I recently read about a Jewish woman who survived a local holocaust, but I don't think most here are in for changing their views that they already have formed.

Sure this does not excuse the current situation, Russia wages war with Ukraine not because Ukraine is overflowing with Nazies (there are some , but they are everywhere not just Ukraine) it does so for a geopolitical goal and to stop Ukraine from joining NATO.
 
  • #859
wrobel said:
A couple days ago there was a survey in MIPT "Do you support the war". About 90% said "no"
Since that I have been thinking what must these "10%" have in their heads? I do not know.
What's MIPT?
 
  • #860
I really don't know what should I think about this.
 
  • #862
PeroK said:
In other words: "Burn their children's laughter. On to hell."
It really does seem like "The Gates of Delirium" doesn't it?
 
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  • #863
FNMQy6BWUAIpdCh?format=jpg&name=900x900.jpg




 
  • #864
Currently 1,700,000 refugees or 4% of the entire population, est. 7% of all who are allowed to flee.

Russia is demanding that refugees should flee to Belarus and then to Russia instead. If it wasn't so sad it would be funny. The degree of unreality (madness, and I am afraid in a pathological sense) on the Russian side could hardly be greater.
 
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  • #865
Quite horrifying - and indeed pathological. I've already mentioned the 'disconnect' between whether the aim is to "de-Nazify" or "de-communize" Ukraine. And there are even veterans of the "Great Patriotic War" being bombed and forced to evacuate their homes - unimaginable.
 
  • #866
neilparker62 said:
On the whole , I think we could probably do without this particular form of Russian Roulette!
It is an aside.

There is a video circulating on social media showing Ukrainians in body bags.

It is obviously fake as one of the body bags partially blows off via the wind and the “body” inside covers its self-up again.

The video was actually a climate change protest in Vienna early last month nothing to do with the war, they just overdubbed some commentary.

I was thinking is this just another poor taste face book attempt at humour? (reactions to it were not in that spirit at all)

A genuine attempt to discredit the Ukrainian cause by a pro-Russian?

An attempt to paint the Russians in a bad light by putting forward a supposed Russian fake video by a pro Ukrainian?

Who cares? People are actually dying here right? Yes but hearts, minds and opinion will be important when the fighting stops.

Especially when it comes to elections, resolutions, referendums, financial support etc.
 
  • #867
@pinball1970 At this point there is so much misinformation about this war from both sides that I personally just stopped following any of it.

Truth is the first casualty in war... as they say.
 
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  • #868
artis said:
@pinball1970 At this point there is so much misinformation about this war from both sides that I personally just stopped following any of it.

Truth is the first casualty in war... as they say.
Yes this is true but on the whole I think some flow of information and/or exchange of perceptions (however flawed) is better than no flow!
 
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  • #869
artis said:
so much misinformation about this war from both sides
CBC TV is saying there is "aerial bombardment" of Ukrainian civilians.
 
  • #870
Ukrainian men joined the army , and the women said "Me too"...

 
  • #871
artis said:
@pinball1970 At this point there is so much misinformation about this war from both sides that I personally just stopped following any of it.

Truth is the first casualty in war... as they say.

Vladimir Zhoga, the leader of the Russian Sparta Battalion (of the DPR), was killed recently. He is known for torture and execution of POWs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_Battalion

Here are two headlines, one from each side. The first one says he is a neo-nazi war lord. The second one says he is a hero of Russia, who was killed by neo-nazis while protecting civilians. Russia certainly does claim a starkly different reality than the West.

Russian separatist warlord who led Neo-Nazi 'Sparta' mob is shot dead during battle in eastern Ukraine town in fresh blow to Putin's floundering invasion

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rta-mob-shot-dead-battle-eastern-Ukraine.html

Executive Order awarding title of Hero of Russian ... - Kremlin

link to official Russian news, might not work:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiQ-b2V07T2AhW2JUQIHV9sBAgQFnoECA8QAQ&url=http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67920&usg=AOvVaw1rbFRQ5zB-RGZWfhUYuGr1
 
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  • #872
China's foreign minister on Monday called Russia his country's “most important strategic partner” as Beijing continues to refuse to condemn the invasion of Ukraine despite growing pressure from the US and European Union to use its influence to rein Moscow in.

Wang Yi said Chinese ties with Moscow constitute “one of the most crucial bilateral relationships in the world."
-- https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europ...cks-relationship-with-russia-despite-invasion
 
  • #873
Most of those "Russian vodkas" were not actually from Russia. The distillers are working on less misleading labels.
 
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  • #874
fresh_42 said:
Good luck with that!

And may there be more of it than Elser has had!
Thanks for linking to this update of "Eller's" life. Using ingenuity and clockwork mechanism knowledge to fight his war against tyranny reminds me of the early life in Germany of fellow Vietnam War veteran Dieter Dengler.
 
  • #875
Keith_McClary said:
Most of those "Russian vodkas" were not actually from Russia. The distillers are working on less misleading labels.

My inebriation seems much better knowing that...I was trying to drink all evidence of my potential disloyalty. Successfully as it turns out.
 
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  • #876
Russian Police Investigate the Crime of Writing "No to War" in the Snow

 
  • #877
Keith_McClary said:
Most of those "Russian vodkas" were not actually from Russia. The distillers are working on less misleading labels.
Ukrainian vodkas?
 
  • #878
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  • #879
Astronuc said:
Partners in crime.

From 2014.

China and Russia signed a $400-billion gas supply deal on Wednesday, securing the world’s top energy user a major source of cleaner fuel and opening up a new market for Moscow as it risks losing European customers over the Ukraine crisis.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...gn-400-billion-gas-deal-idUSBREA4K07K20140521

And from last month.

Russia has agreed a 30-year contract to supply gas to China via a new pipeline and will settle the new gas sales in euros, bolstering an energy alliance with Beijing amid Moscow's strained ties with the West over Ukraine and other issues.

Gazprom , which has a monopoly on Russian gas exports by pipeline, agreed to supply Chinese state energy major CNPC with 10 billion cubic metres of gas a year, the Russian firm and a Beijing-based industry official said.

First flows through the pipeline, which will connect Russia's Far East region with northeast China, were due to start in two to three years, the source said in comments that were later followed by an announcement of the deal by Gazprom.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-...as-deal-using-new-pipeline-source-2022-02-04/
 
  • #880
The conflict may extend to space.

 
  • #881
New Zealand is on a list of countries considered "unfriendly" by Russia. Nonetheless, Putin is one individual named as being banned from entering NZ.
 
  • #882
StevieTNZ said:
New Zealand is on a list of countries considered "unfriendly" by Russia.
Well, you are not allowing their airlines to use your airspace.
 
  • #883
Keith_McClary said:
Well, you are not allowing their airlines to use your airspace.
Which we have every right to impose.
 
  • #884
StevieTNZ said:
New Zealand is on a list of countries considered "unfriendly" by Russia.
Welcome to the club. All EU member countries are on that list now, along with others.

Business Insider said:
The list includes "Australia, UK, EU countries, Iceland, Canada, Liechtenstein, Monaco, New Zealand, Norway, Korea, San Marino, Singapore, USA, Taiwan, Ukraine, Montenegro, Switzerland, Japan," according to a tweet from Russian outlet Ria translated by CNN analyst Brianna Golodryga.
Source: Russia reacts to global condemnation of its Ukraine war as its currency collapses by publishing list of 'unfriendly countries' (Business Insider)
 
  • #885
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  • #886
wrobel said:
A couple days ago there was a survey in MIPT "Do you support the war". About 90% said "no"
Doesn't that mean those 90% will soon be imprisoned? :oldfrown:
wrobel said:
Since that I have been thinking what must these "10%" have in their heads? I do not know.
A sense of self-preservation perhaps?
 
  • #887
Jarvis323 said:
The conflict may extend to space.
Ars Technica also ran some articles on this:
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...al-space-station-and-prevent-the-dreaded-gap/
https://arstechnica.com/science/202...t-chief-urges-us-russia-cooperation-in-space/

I guess it will be increasingly difficult to find any area of "world affairs" not being affected by this surreal and shocking departure from structure, particularly so in areas where the (official) Russia already in recent times have demonstrated they don't like to play by common rules. In that context I must admit worrying about the impact on space missions is currently pretty far down on my personal worry list.
 
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  • #888
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  • #889
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In case you want to know what Гаага means. It is Russian for The Hague!
 
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  • #892
fresh_42 said:
they fight for Russians, too!
exactly!
 
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  • #893
Ukraine is the democracy which Russia should have become! Perhaps that is what Mr Putin and pals are most worried about and determined to stamp out at all costs.
 
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  • #896
We are for Taiwan's right to secede, but against Donbas' right to secede.
 
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  • #897
Who is"we"? And by what mechanism do you speak for the people of Donbas?
 
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  • #898
hutchphd said:
Who is"we"? And by what mechanism do you speak for the people of Donbas?
"We" meaning the West. Ukraine is opposed to secession. They don't care what the people think, same as in Crimea.
 
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  • #899
Keith_McClary said:
We are for Taiwan's right to secede, but against Donbas' right to secede.

What even is your definition of secede here.
 
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  • #900
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