Negative pressure in house after winterizing

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Sealing the attic door and windows with plastic has created significant pressure changes, leading to inward suction on both the attic and first-floor windows. The discussion highlights concerns about negative pressure potentially caused by the heating system drawing indoor air for combustion, which could exacerbate air exchange issues. Stack effect is noted as a possible factor, where warm air escapes from the top of the house, but the inward pressure on the attic door contradicts typical expectations. Suggestions include sealing gaps around light fixtures and using tissue tests to identify air leaks, as well as considering the installation of a vent to balance air pressure. Overall, addressing these air exchange areas is crucial to prevent further pressure-related issues.
  • #51
Greg Bernhardt said:
That's pretty good!
Yay!

The pipe goes into the basement floor and sucks air from under the basement floor
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and call this "radon destroyer" device a "non-significant" variable.

My guess as to the "most significant variable" would be: Fireplace maximum BTU/hr output...

This would lead to an inferred minimum opening for your chimney flue damper.
 
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  • #52
OmCheeto said:
This would lead to an inferred minimum opening for your chimney flue damper.
The damper is pinned open about an inch.
 
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  • #53
OmCheeto said:
I'm going to go out on a limb here, and call this "radon destroyer" device a "non-significant" variable.
..., so long as it was "proper retrofitting." How many cracks in the basement floor?
 
  • #54
Bystander said:
..., so long as it was "proper retrofitting." How many cracks in the basement floor?
None, it was sealed with epoxy paint a few years ago
 
  • #55
Greg Bernhardt said:
None, it was sealed with epoxy paint a few years ago
Including all water, sewer, gas line, et cetera, ... "hokay."
 
  • #56
Greg Bernhardt said:
The damper is pinned open about an inch.
Seems that would be sucking air from that floor, and that would also draw air from the attic door, causing the plastic to be sucked into the room.
jim hardy said:
I hope the water heater vent goes clear up to the roof - else taller chimney draft can overwhelm it and suck combustion products in backward.
I'd expect the water heater has a powered vent, that is typical of a through-the-wall exhaust. Probably PVC?
 
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  • #57
Does the effect vary with wind direction ? Along vs across the ridge-line ?? Or relative to any eave gaps ?? Harking back to something I read long ago on storm resistance, specifically venting 'attic pressure' lest it help remove your roof, I'm thinking 'aerodynamics'...
 
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  • #58
My opinion: Everything in the house creates heat. People, stove, water boiler, oven, TV, etc. That has to go someplace. So it's found a way out. Chimney, holes for the lights, wall outlets, door jams etc. That creates a current of air that is creating an negative (with relation to outside) vacuum. So the air is trying to come by the windows to equalize the house pressure.I found this out when I put a cooler in the attic. I had an evap cooler in the attic and it did a great job. Problem was it also pushed all the humid air into the house. It took me years to patch all the air gaps and there were hundreds. I've got it pretty close now, but there is a still a slight breeze when the cooler is running. (Enough to push a door closed to the garage if it's slightly ajar. Before I did all the patching and plugging it would slam that same door closed!) Your case is the opposite, but it's still probably the same thing. And as others have said any course of heat that burn something has to pull it's air from someplace. But even if you had them all vented with their own intakes, you, your TV, your stove, etc being in the house will generate heat that is trying to find a way out. Once it does, you create the vacuum you are seeing.

Once you plug all those leaks you'll probably see positive pressure in the house.

HTH
 
  • #59
Small update: I found evidence of mice in my basement but couldn't figure out where they were coming in from. Then I crawled under my deck which has very low clearance and saw there is essentially a missing brick in the lower outside wall. Obviously that is how they are getting in and I wonder if that hole was contributing to my pressure issue. I mean literally there is a brick size hole leading into my basement. I never saw it from the inside because there is dry wall down there.
 
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  • #60
Well spotted ! Was there an old pipe or something before ?
Whatever, at this time of year, expanding foam is your friend...
 
  • #61
Nik_2213 said:
Well spotted ! Was there an old pipe or something before ?
Whatever, at this time of year, expanding foam is your friend...
No it appears to just have just crumbled away. God knows how many years it's been like that! Should be above 40F on tuesday which is apparently required for foam or mortar. I was thinking of just doing it right with mortar instead of using foam. I've heard mice can chew through it. Will be awkward though since the clearance is like 12in :biggrin:
 
  • #62
I'm a fan of mortar. You might toss in a few handfuls of Portland to make it stronger.

There's a product called "Hydraulic Cement" that sets up in about five minutes and gets hot to the touch. I used it around my septic tank entrance, it's amazing stuff.
You could use it like mortar . Get a bucketful of stones and build a mini rock wall where that missing brick is.
Mix just a little at a time, though.

upload_2017-11-12_15-17-43.png
 

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  • #63
Nik_2213 said:
Does the effect vary with wind direction ? Along vs across the ridge-line ?? Or relative to any eave gaps ?? Harking back to something I read long ago on storm resistance, specifically venting 'attic pressure' lest it help remove your roof, I'm thinking 'aerodynamics'...

I think it's probably ghosts, I don;t understand how with higher temp inside than out that there could be lower pressure through out the house when nothing is on...of course presuming it's not the weather outside it must be ghosts right?
 
  • #64
We are having a windy day with gusts of 60mph. What I'm noticing is that our two bathroom fan vents are drafting some cold air. Both exhausts to the outside have flaps, but perhaps they aren't effective enough. Are there brands where the seal is tight? This seems like an obvious huge heat drain.
 
  • #65
Greg Bernhardt said:
...windy day with gusts of 60mph...

hmmm... Cold weather + wind + reality = "Homework problem template", IMHO.

One thing I know: Air has a very low heat capacity.

Until we determine the:
  1. surface volume of your house
  2. its R-value, and
  3. the mass or volumetric flow rate of your vents

we can't really determine if it's obvious.
 
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  • #66
Greg Bernhardt said:
We are having a windy day with gusts of 60mph. What I'm noticing is that our two bathroom fan vents are drafting some cold air. Both exhausts to the outside have flaps, but perhaps they aren't effective enough. Are there brands where the seal is tight? This seems like an obvious huge heat drain.
The technical name for what you want is a "backseat damper". The fan itself probably has a gravity closed but unsealed plastic flap. If it isn't doing the job for whatever reason, you can buy a better one (metal, sealed, balanced and spring loaded) at Home Depot, connect it to the existing duct with zip ties and break the plastic one off.
 
  • #67
OmCheeto said:
hmmm... Cold weather + wind + reality = "Homework problem template", IMHO.

One thing I know: Air has a very low heat capacity.

Until we determine the:
  1. surface volume of your house
  2. its R-value, and
  3. the mass or volumetric flow rate of your vents

we can't really determine if it's obvious.
With an unsincere apology to SI adherents, a standard residential exhaust fan is 50 CFM and air has a heat capacity of 1.08 BTU/hr/cfm. Let's guess 10% leakage on average and a 30F average winter outdoor temperature (70F room temp). That's 216 BTU/hr. Gas costs something like $6 per million BTU so at 80% efficiency for his boiler, that's $1.17 per month of lost energy. If he can save that 3 months of the year (not including summer savings as well...) and do the install himself with an $11 part, it'll pay back in 3 years.

Not sure what you were after with R-Value, but Greg is asking about direct air leakage...
 
  • #68
russ_watters said:
The technical name for what you want is a "backseat damper". The fan itself probably has a gravity closed but unsealed plastic flap. If it isn't doing the job for whatever reason, you can buy a better one (metal, sealed, balanced and spring loaded) at Home Depot, connect it to the existing duct with zip ties and break the plastic one off.

Maybe I need a better outside vent?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004VZ2XT6/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Or are you talking more like this?
https://www.houzz.com/product/41883...st-ducts-4-contemporary-bathroom-exhaust-fans

Or both? Problem is my upstairs bath fan is vented through the roof. I don't really want to go up there.
 
  • #69
russ_watters said:
air has a heat capacity of 1.08 BTU/hr/cfm

? I think heat capacity needs a temperature dimension in the units
 
  • #70
Greg Bernhardt said:
Maybe I need a better outside vent?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004VZ2XT6/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Or are you talking more like this?
https://www.houzz.com/product/41883...st-ducts-4-contemporary-bathroom-exhaust-fans

Or both? Problem is my upstairs bath fan is vented through the roof. I don't really want to go up there.
I was referring to this:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/VENTS-U...gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CPC2952b9tcCFei4swodPecDaQ

If you have a side discharge you might try replacing the whole hood/damper unit.

That was for a dryer though an I was thinking your damper might be on the fan. That's common:

ar13386920823866.jpg
 

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  • #72
The manufacturers website (http://ventfans-search.aiprx.us.panasonic.com/FV-11VQL6.html) says nothing about a damper being included. Perhaps one needs to be added.
russ_watters said:
This one is for a 4inch duct, but the specs and backpressure curves look compatible, and it's cheap enough to try. Note this is to be insalled in a horizontal run of ducting.
 
  • #73
Tom.G said:
Perhaps one needs to be added.
Unbelievable considering it wasn't a cheap model. I suppose I have to remove it to get the damper in. hmmmm
 
  • #74
Since the dampers mentioned so far assume a 4" dryer duct, perhaps the easiest would be get some plasticized cloth (an old raincoat or rainhat?, piece of a tarp?) and make one like the HOUZZ design you mentioned. That way you don't have to deal with cutting the existing ducts to make room for a damper. Just attach the material at an existing joint.
 
  • #75
Tom.G said:
The manufacturers website (http://ventfans-search.aiprx.us.panasonic.com/FV-11VQL6.html) says nothing about a damper being included.
Pro tip: add a "PDF" to the google search and you get the official engineering submittal document:
https://s2.img-b.com/build.com/medi...c/889432/panasonic-fv-11vql6-specsheet-24.pdf

Also, someone asked in the amazon comments section, but it was buried a dozen questions down...
 
  • #76
russ_watters said:
...
Not sure what you were after with R-Value, but Greg is asking about direct air leakage...
Ratios!

What's the ratio of heat loss from Greg's house via:
the lack of insulation
vs
direct air leakage
?​

We know that Greg has a 3 story house, with one of the stories being at least partially underground, and from a previous post, the upstairs is unheated, so, I'll interpolate his above ground surface area as being 189 m^2. (1000 ft^2 floor area with 8 ft tall walls)

Using your temperature numbers, I calculate that with the fan on, he would be losing 635 watts.
With a nominal R-value of 13, his walls and ceiling will be losing 1815 watts.

Since we don't know his actual air leakage rate, nor his aggregate R-value, it's difficult for me to recommend a course of action.

Also, since we now know his bathroom fans have "back draft dampers" and he has exterior flaps, I would not recommend adding more flaps.

ps. obligatory graph:

2017.12.07.apples.and.oranges.graphs.png


This tells me, that even at 10% of the fans flow rate, it's still losing 1/27th as much energy as the house, itself.
 

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  • #77
Coincidentally, the wind is also quite brisk at my house, and the temperature is near freezing.
Not knowing how to measure air flow leakage through my bathroom fan, I decided to do an experiment.

I used 4 pieces of masking tape, and secured one of those ultra-light weight produce bags over the inside vent opening.
It just kind of pulsated like a plastic lung, so it appeared that I had no net leakage.

Still curious, I replaced the produce bag with a dry cleaning bag, and inflated it with a hair dryer.
It took ≈3 minutes, to evacuate ≈1/2 of the 1.1 m long x 1.24 m circumference tube, yielding a flow rate of 0.000374 m^3/sec. (0.8 cfm)
Which from my calculations gives me a net energy loss from the vent of ≈10 watts.
Which is not quite as high as my 1700 watts lost through my walls and ceilings. (R-13, 1000 ft^2, 8 ft tall walls, diff temp 40°F)

My guess is that there is some type of Bernoulli effect going on at the roof vent, which is where my fan exhausts to.
As far as the costs go, my fan leak costs me ≈90¢/month, and my poor insulation is costing me $150/month.

The conclusion of the following is that a proposed alternative effect of why the bag shrank is negligible, so you can ignore it:
Another possible explanation for the bag shrinkage may be the back and forth flow of air through the vent. The vent tube runs through the attic.
So I took some measurements:
attic RTD reading: 5.46 kΩ (My house is wired, for science. There's also an RTD in the crawl space.)
attic temp: 43.1 °F, 6.2 °C, 279 K

Ambient bathroom temp: 70 °F, 21.1 °C, 294 K​
From the ideal gas law, we know that PV = nRT
Given that P, n, and R are all constant, Volume must be proportional to Temperature: V = kT
Volume = 0.135 m^3 = k * 294
therefore k = 0.135/294 = 0.00046
Volume @ 279 K = 0.00046 * 279 = 0.128 m^3
0.128/0.135 = 0.95
Which tells me that the bag would only shrink 5% if the bags air was being chilled by 15 K. (27 °F)​
 
  • #78
Today I calculated that Greg's bathroom fan is theoretically capable of a 500 kw heat loss. (@ a 40°F temperature differential)
I found that, most humorous.
So I did another calculation, throwing in another variable, and came up with a number of 236 watts.
That still seems a bit high.

This may require some "empirical" data, to capture something I'm missing.
 
  • #79
Greg Bernhardt said:
So pretty much I should stop wasting my time and just deal with the energy bill? :biggrin:
I have new thermal windows from Home depot in all of my windows, not a whiff of a breeze. I also have storm doors at every door, and NO wind coming through the doors. Also, I can remove the thermal glass in the spring and just have screen doors in cooler weather.
 
  • #80
In houses with the old leaky storm windows the stack effect was noticeable because the moist air leaking out the upstairs windows would frost up the inside of the storm windows. The lower windows would be clear because of the relatively dry air leaking in.
 
  • #81
I think I’ve nailed the culprit to being the fire place. The damper is pinned open due to the gas logs and are only have a moveable metal mesh grate over the opening. If I install fixed glass doors would that help? They wouldn’t be air tight.
 
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  • #82
Greg Bernhardt said:
I think I’ve nailed the culprit to being the fire place. The damper is pinned open due to the gas logs and are only have a moveable metal mesh grate over the opening. If I install fixed glass doors would that help? They wouldn’t be air tight.

Why pinned open - what does that have to do with "gas logs"? Is there a constant pilot or something?

The glass doors I've seen don't seal that great, and if you do have a pilot, it would need some air anyway.
 
  • #83
Greg Bernhardt said:
I think I’ve nailed the culprit to being the fire place. The damper is pinned open due to the gas logs and are only have a moveable metal mesh grate over the opening. If I install fixed glass doors would that help? They wouldn’t be air tight.
Tough call. You might want to check with the manufacturer.
 
  • #84
NTL2009 said:
Why pinned open - what does that have to do with "gas logs"? Is there a constant pilot or something?
Exactly, by design the damper needs to be pinned open for pilot exhaust.
 
  • #85
Greg Bernhardt said:
Exactly, by design the damper needs to be pinned open for pilot exhaust.
How often do you use it? I'd consider turning the pilot off, and lighting when I use it, and removing the pin.
 
  • #86
NTL2009 said:
Why pinned open - what does that have to do with "gas logs"? Is there a constant pilot or something?
Pilot lights on those are extremely rare. More likely a safety consideration for when someone doesn't turn the gas valve completely closed. As an alternative safety feature you could install an automatic gas shutoff valve that uses a thermocouple to keep the gas on only when it is hot. They are used on almost all gas appliances with a pilot light. The drawback is you have to hold their Reset button depressed until the thermocouple heats up on startup.

Some areas require a fireplace to have an inlet for outside combustion air. That and fairly tight fitting glass doors would greatly improve the efficiency. I don't recall the exact number, but without outside combustion air, fireplace heating efficiency is negative below 40° to 50°F.

If you do install a duct for outside combustion air, construct it as you would a chimney; i.e. good clearance from combustable materials like wall studs and siding. The reason being that when the wind blows and the air intake is on the downwind (low pressure) side of the house, you can get a backdraft with the chimney acting as air intake and the smoke going out what you thought was the intake. Just something to keep in mind.
 
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  • #87
Greg Bernhardt said:
I think I’ve nailed the culprit to being the fire place. The damper is pinned open due to the gas logs and are only have a moveable metal mesh grate over the opening. If I install fixed glass doors would that help? They wouldn’t be air tight.

They'd have to help. Plus they're a barrier against soot & water vapor from combustion.
Just make sure the unit still gets plenty of combustion air.
I would contact whoever manufactured your gas log and get a copy of their installation guide. There should be guidelines as to size of chimney opening required .

I strongly urge you to have someone skilled in the trade examine your installation . Sealing up your household air leaks has changed how your fireplace 'breathes' .
Combustion air that used to leak in through the walls will now have to come down the chimney. Has the flame become less blue and more yellow since sealing the leaks ?
In all probability everything is fine but a CO meter reading would be reassuring. As would a chimney inspection to look for bird nests and lost frisbees. You don't want combustion products in your living room .

old jim.
 
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