Negative work on a moving body

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of negative work done on a moving body, specifically in the context of a box shot upward against the force of gravity. Participants explore the mathematical description of this phenomenon, considering both dynamic and energetic perspectives.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where a box has kinetic energy and is moving upward, questioning how to mathematically describe the negative work done by gravity.
  • Another participant suggests that the action of forces can be described either dynamically using Newton's 2nd law or energetically using work done, asserting that both methods yield the same result.
  • A participant expresses difficulty in understanding the concept in general terms and requests clarification using the specific example provided, particularly regarding the mathematical representation of opposing forces.
  • There is a mention of using vector addition (parallelogram method) to find net force, with a focus on the single force of gravity acting on the box.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best way to mathematically describe the negative work done by gravity. There are competing views on the clarity and applicability of dynamic versus energetic descriptions.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the mathematical representation of negative work and the interaction of forces, particularly in the context of vector addition and energy conservation principles.

alba
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workliftbox.gif

Suppose the box (stone, bullet..., $$m =1$$) is not moving upward because of a lift, but has been shot and has $$v = 20m/s$$ and $$KE = 200 J$$

Gravity is doing negative work and subtracting energy:
$$F = -ma = 10 \cdot 1 = -10 N$$
We cannot use the palallelogram here as KE is not a force, how do you deal with this situation, how do you describe it mathematically?

It is trivial that the box will reach the height KE/ F = 20 m and that there KE will be 0 and PE = 200, and at any height h ##KE_h = 200 -PE_h##, but how do you describe the relation, process, the action of negative work done on the body?
The same problem, I suppose, arise if we try to describe the flight of an arrow, on which drag does negative work.
 
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You can describe the action of the forces (gravity in your example) either dynamically (using Newton's 2nd law) or energetically (using work done). You'll get the same answer either way.

Dynamically, since the only force acting is gravity you know the resulting acceleration is -g. Using work, F*d is negative since the force (down) and displacement (up) are in opposite directions.
 
Doc Al said:
You can describe the action of the forces (gravity in your example) either dynamically (using Newton's 2nd law) or energetically (using work done). You'll get the same answer either way.

Dynamically, since the only force acting is gravity you know the resulting acceleration is -g. Using work, F*d is negative since the force (down) and displacement (up) are in opposite directions.
Thank you, sir, but it is rather hard for me to understand that, in general terms. Can you refer to the concrete example above? In the case of forces we use the parallelogram and subtract ( if upward F were 15 N we would know = + 5N) in this case how do you descrbe mathematically this opposition? Can we only use the makeshift of mechanical energy?
 
alba said:
In the case of forces we use the parallelogram and subtract ( if upward F were 15 N we would know = + 5N) in this case how do you descrbe mathematically this opposition?
By 'parallelogram', I assume you mean vector addition to find the net force. In your example you only have one force, gravity. F = -mg
 

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