Normal Force of a Sliding Rope: Debunking the Myth

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the normal force acting on a rope that is partially hanging off the edge of a table as it begins to slide. Participants explore the relationship between the weight of the rope on the table, the forces acting on the rope, and the role of friction in this scenario. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and assumptions about the behavior of forces in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the common belief that the normal force is simply the weight of the rope on the table, suggesting that the hanging part of the rope may also contribute to the normal force.
  • Another participant proposes that in an idealized case with a constant dynamic coefficient of friction, the friction force is proportional to the weight of the rope on the table.
  • It is argued that the downward force from the hanging rope affects the normal force acting on the part of the rope still on the table, implying it may not equal just the weight of the rope on the table.
  • Some participants assert that forces must cancel when the rope is not accelerating, questioning why the normal force would not equal the weight of the rope on the table despite the hanging portion exerting a downward pull.
  • One participant introduces the concept of treating the edge of the table as a frictionless pulley, suggesting that forces are redirected rather than simply canceled.
  • Another participant counters this by emphasizing that if a pulley is considered part of the system, it too experiences a normal force due to the downward pull of the rope.
  • Further discussion includes the idea that the table or pulley may deform slightly in response to the forces, affecting the normal force exerted.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the normal force in this scenario, with no consensus reached. Some believe the normal force should account for the hanging portion of the rope, while others maintain that it is simply the weight of the rope on the table. The discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Assumptions about the idealized conditions, such as constant friction and the treatment of the table edge as a pulley, are discussed but not universally accepted. The implications of these assumptions on the normal force and the overall system dynamics are not fully explored.

PatPwnt
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If I have an extended (uncoiled) rope sitting on a table, and part of it is hanging off the edge of the table so that it starts to slide (there is friction), how would the normal force of the table acting on the rope change as it slides off? This has been bugging me for weeks, because people keep telling me that the normal force is just the weight of the rope on top of the table. I have a hard time believing this because the rope hanging over the edge may still pull the table top rope, contributing to the normal force.
 
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Assuming an idealized case where dynamic coefficient of friction is constant regardless of speed, the friction force = (weight of rope on table) x (dynamic coefficient of friction). The downwards force beyond the edge of the table = weight of segment of rope between edge of table and ground.
 
The downwards force beyond the edge of the table still tugs on the part of the rope on the table though. So the normal force must also cancel this out and may be different than just the weight of the rope on the table.
 
There's no rule that states the forces cancel. Assuming the downwards force is greater than the friction force, then the rope accelerates.
 
I mean that the part of the rope on top of the table stays on the table until it moves over the edge. If the rope isn't moving upward off the table or downward through the table, then the forces must be canceling. That's the rule. So why would the normal force only be the weight of the rope on top of the table when the rope hanging over is still pulling down on it?
 
PatPwnt said:
I mean that the part of the rope on top of the table stays on the table until it moves over the edge. If the rope isn't moving upward off the table or downward through the table, then the forces must be canceling. That's the rule. So why would the normal force only be the weight of the rope on top of the table when the rope hanging over is still pulling down on it?
Think of the edge of the table as a frictionless, intertialess pulley, the downforce from the rope on the outer part of the pulley is converted into a sideforce on the inner part of the pulley.
 
But, that is not what is happening. If we consider there to be a pulley. It must be considered part of the system. Then the rope pulling down on the side also pulls down on the pulley and it also has a normal force.
 
PatPwnt said:
But, that is not what is happening. If we consider there to be a pulley. It must be considered part of the system. Then the rope pulling down on the side also pulls down on the pulley and it also has a normal force.
The end of the table or whatever the pulley is mounted to reacts to any downwards component of force by deforming (compressing) a tiny amount and exerting an opposing upwards force.
 

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