Not having children to save money

[FallenApple]

Indeed and if you had the trifecta of the nigh-perfect George - rich, famous and fabulously good-looking - then it goes without saying that this thread would have been about 54 posts shorter.

I'm not rich nor famous. But I'm good looking. I'm 6'1 and have a good face with good shoulder width to waist ratio. Thus I get a tremendous amounts of matches on dating websites. I've had many relationships and ease in the dating field. Yes, money is a factor, which is why I'm seriously considering not having children.

 

[FallenApple]

No. That would assume some statistically very unlikely correlation that would be very difficult to justify.

You're talking about "those" men". You can't just single out a portion of a distribution graph and say "OK, these data points here are caused by this other factor not due to the simple correlation already observed."

Has it even crossed the researchers minds? Have they properly controlled for these variables?

Is it that unlikely? Is it that unlikely that certain paths are not taken because of a lack of some innate trait? Most people don't suddenly become mathematicians at old age because they just don't make the cut. Is it that surprising? Happens all the time.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm not rich nor famous. But I'm good looking. I'm 6'1 and have a good face with good shoulder width to waist ratio. Thus I get a tremendous amounts of matches on dating websites. I've had many relationships and ease in the dating field. Yes, money is a factor, which is why I'm seriously considering not having children.

Then you are lucky to be a statistical outlier.

Note though that, just because you are desirable, does not mean that there will be a big pool of takers.
You will be picking from a much smaller pool of women who are
- wishing to start a family
- are young enough to do so
- yet - for whatever reason - have not yet done so
- and are willing to overlook the risk (both real and imaginary) associated with a significantly older husband and father of their children.

Even if you are near the top of the pick list, it is still - relatively speaking - a small pool.

 

[FallenApple]

Then you are lucky to be a statistical outlier.

Note though that, just because you are desirable, does not mean that there will be a big pool of takers.
You will be picking from a much smaller pool of women who are
- wishing to start a family
- are young enough to do so
- yet - for whatever reason - have not yet done so
- and are willing to overlook the risk (both real and imaginary) associated with a significantly older husband and father of their children.

Even if you are near the top of the pick list, it is still - relatively speaking - a small pool.

I am lucky to be a outlier. I'll admit that. But money does matter. I've had relationships end because of that issue. Because while looks are important, they cannot compensate for something so critical as wealth. Which is why I decided to slow down on forming a long term relationship until I have the finances completely ready for a family life.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yeah, anyone could become an Einstein, even if they start in their fifties.
But they should not fool themselves into thinking the odds aren't against them.
Especially when it's not entirely their own decision - as in your case; it requires someone other than you to put their faith in it.

And especially when they could do something about it now, when they have their best chance.

 

[DaveC426913]

Look, generally, women who want to start a family look for a compatible mate first and foremost.

While financial stability is important, you can bet that money - never mind wealth - is only important to women in cliched movies of yesteryear.

The right woman won't care about your money.

I'll let you pursue your journey as you see fit.

Carry on.

 

[FallenApple]

Yeah, anyone could become an Einstein, even if they start in their fifties.
But they should not fool themselves into thinking the odds aren't against them.
Especially when it's not entirely their own decision - as in your case; it requires someone other than you to put their faith in it.

And especially when they could do something about it now, when they have their best chance.

My relationships generally have not lasted long. I've dated several women this year. Often I get nagged about career issues. It's how my last marriage ended. I was married into rich family and often I get compared to really successful people. It was stressful. It's how my first relationship ended too.

 

[FallenApple]

Look, generally, women who want to start a family look for a compatible mate first and foremost.

While financial stability is important, you can bet that money - never mind wealth - is only important to women in cliched movies of yesteryear.

The right woman won't care about your money.

I'll let you pursue your journey as you see fit.

Carry on.

The world isn't all flowers and sunshine. When I was doing well financially, for several years, I was wanted. But when I dipped low in financial value for one year, well it's obvious what happened. It matches the theory of evolutionary psychology. My anecdote is merely the result of a human biology, making it not a mere anecdote but the result of something more fundamental. I'm fine with it. Money is on my mind and I'll try to hoard as much as I can until more ideal situations. It's not merely about financial stability. I make more than enough to survive and am stable financially. But there is a hierarchical aspect to wealth. Everyone wants to be top dog and to be with someone that is. Social conditioning or not, it's just how it is.

 

[russ_watters]

The world isn't all flowers and sunshine. When I was doing well financially, for several years, I was wanted. But when I dipped low in financial value for one year, well it's obvious what happened.

What I find odd about this is how do women have any idea how much money you make early in a relationship or looking at your profile on a dating site? Do you have your income posted in your profile? Do you really want to be with a woman for whom that matters s lot?

 

[Astronuc]

Apparently, it costs over $200,000 to raise a child. This is not an insignificant amount of money. By forgoing children, I can easily buy a vacation home in another country. I can also make more money than I would have otherwise by spending the allotted "family time" on working or a side hustle.

Has anyone here gone this route? Anyone unhappy with this choice?

With respect to "Not having children to save money", one can do both. One works, earns money to support a family, AND save some portion of one's earnings.

I paid my way through school. After I got married and began grad school, my wife and I both worked, as well as going to school, and we paid off my wife's undergrad student loans, we bought her a brand new car, and we left grad school debt free. During my undergrad years, I helped my folks support my three siblings in their education, including undergrad programs.

Since then, I've done quite well.

 

[FallenApple]

What I find odd about this is how do women have any idea how much money you make early in a relationship or looking at your profile on a dating site? Do you have your income posted in your profile? Do you really want to be with a woman for whom that matters s lot?

Of course money doesn't matter very much in online dating. This is because first impressions are based off of our caveman instincts, hence the importance of looks.

But money does matter after the first impression was made. There has been studies shown that money does matter a lot for a male and that females care quite a bit.

 

[StatGuy2000]

@DaveC426913 For the record, I am 43 years old and single (although in a relationship). Hypothetically, if I decide that I want to raise a family, are you suggesting that I need to rush to do this because my prospects of being able to have children are so low?

(For the record, I have no particular interest in having children, nor does my partner)

 

[ZeGato]

You've been dating the wrong women if being rich is that important. Either that, or you're putting much more importance in that factor than you should. Sure, if you're rich it's easier to attract women, but it's also way more likely that you'd end up staying with the wrong ones, who'd dump you in a heartbeat if you were to lose your money or status. It's just like a hot woman attracting lots of men, but then having to find one who's with her not just for the looks/sex.

 

[TeethWhitener]

My anecdote is merely the result of a human biology, making it not a mere anecdote but the result of something more fundamental.

No, an anecdote is still an anecdote even if it agrees with an accepted theory.

 

[FallenApple]

You've been dating the wrong women if being rich is that important. Either that, or you're putting much more importance in that factor than you should. Sure, if you're rich it's easier to attract women, but it's also way more likely that you'd end up staying with the wrong ones, who'd dump you in a heartbeat if you were to lose your money or status. It's just like a hot woman attracting lots of men, but then having to find one who's with her not just for the looks/sex.

Being rich is important. Evolutionary speaking, luxury items afforded by the wealthy is a example of fitness like how the male peacock shows his fitness by having a heavy ostentatious plume.

Here's a excerpt from wiki

An example in humans was suggested by Geoffrey Miller who expressed that Veblen goods such as luxury cars and other forms of conspicuous consumption are manifestations of the handicap principle, being used to advertise "fitness", in the form of wealth and status, to potential mates.

More on the handicap principle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principleIt's important to have maximal statistical advantage. Not every woman will require a man to be rich. However, it is still in my best interest to become rich. Its all about maximizing the probability.

 

[Evo]

What I find odd about this is how do women have any idea how much money you make early in a relationship or looking at your profile on a dating site? Do you have your income posted in your profile? Do you really want to be with a woman for whom that matters s lot?

One of my friends was a gold digger (I ended up dumping her, she once told me that she could make herself love any man if he had enough money), she would look at a man's shoes if we were at a club and he asked her to dance, she would accept based on how expensive his shoes were. I don't even have any idea what shoes cost, what the brands are, men's or women's. So clothing, car, house or apartment, watch, etc... These usually tip a woman off to a man's wealth up front if that's what she's looking for. On a dating site, I guess if you're looking for money, you go to sites with wealthy men, I knew some gold diggers that went to special dating services that catered to the wealthy. The men were verified. The men mostly just wanted hot women.

 

[gmax137]

she would look at a man's shoes if we were at a club and he asked her to dance

back when I was at clubs asking women to dance, I was looking at my shoes, too... classic nerd

 

[DaveC426913]

@DaveC426913 For the record, I am 43 years old and single (although in a relationship). Hypothetically, if I decide that I want to raise a family, are you suggesting that I need to rush to do this because my prospects of being able to have children are so low?

That depends on your partner. (I will assume you are male and your partner is female.)

If your partner does not want to have children, then yes, if you want to children, you will be starting from scratch - looking for a new partner - in your 40s - with a woman who wants to start a family.

If your partner is open to having children, then you have already beaten the odds of finding a woman who wants to start a family with a man in his 40;s.

The OP has yet to dive into that ever-shrinking pool of women who
- are not partnered up already, and
- do not have a family yet, and
- wish to start a family, and
- are willing to do so with a much older** man as husband and father.**point of clarity here. In your case, being only 43, you won't be much older than a fertile woman, if at all. In the OP's case, he was talking about 10 to 20 years difference.

 

[TeethWhitener]

These usually tip a woman off to a man's wealth up front if that's what she's looking for.

On the other hand, there's this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CLT31D6/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Edit: from the blurb

Most of the truly wealthy in the United States don’t live in Beverly Hills or on Park Avenue. They live next door.

America’s wealthy seldom get that way through an inheritance or an advanced degree. They bargain-shop for used cars, raise children who don’t realize how rich their families are, and reject a lifestyle of flashy exhibitionism and competitive spending. In fact, the glamorous people many of us think of as “rich” are actually a tiny minority of America’s truly wealthy citizens—and behave quite differently than the majority.

 

[ZeGato]

Being rich is important. Evolutionary speaking, luxury items afforded by the wealthy is a example of fitness like how the male peacock shows his fitness by having a heavy ostentatious plume.

Here's a excerpt from wiki
More on the handicap principle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicap_principleIt's important to have maximal statistical advantage. Not every woman will require a man to be rich. However, it is still in my best interest to become rich. Its all about maximizing the probability.

But you said you can get into relationships pretty easily, so what's the point of putting so much effort to do something that you're already able to? And yes, having money is important of course, but I think there is a lower limit from which it doesn't matter much. A good job in STEM for example, should be enough to provide you and your family a comfortable life.

 

[FallenApple]

But you said you can get into relationships pretty easily, so what's the point of putting so much effort to do something that you're already able to? And yes, having money is important of course, but I think there is a lower limit from which it doesn't matter much. A good job in STEM for example, should be enough to provide you and your family a comfortable life.

I can only because I have good physical traits. But that doesn't mean I will be able to sustain the relationship for a significant amount of time. 70% of breakups are initiated by women statistically speaking. If biological compatibility was all that mattered, then humans wouldn't have evolved to have a pattern of serial monogamy.

Resources are important since during early humanity, having resources basically meant life or death, especially when the cavewoman became incapacitated by pregnancy. Now clearly modern day humans are beyond that point of not having basic necessities. So why the obsession over wealth and status? Well, my guess is that while the selection for cavemen with resources was initially for survival and fitness purposes, it eventually became a Fisherian runaway where wealth and status is sought after in and of itself.

 

[gmax137]

the cavewoman became incapacitated by pregnancy

Is there a source for this idea? I know plenty of women who have given birth without being "incapacitated." There are many more statements in this thread I disagree with but I'd like to see this one explained.

 

[FallenApple]

Is there a source for this idea? I know plenty of women who have given birth without being "incapacitated." There are many more statements in this thread I disagree with but I'd like to see this one explained.

Human pregnancies are long. There needs to be extra nutritional resources. Women are less mobile than when they are not pregnant, decreasing their probability of fleeing or fighting off wild animals and attackers from other tribes. Not having this ability during those harsh times basically amounts to being incapacitated. I'm not talking about modern society where things are much safer. In the harsh conditions of early human history where there is no guarantee of food and shelter, and constant threats from the environment, yes, some resources along with a strong mate would have been nice. It makes logical sense that females that didn't have a preference for strong males with resources would have been weeded out over time.

I didn't even mention the extremely long timeframe for human adolescents to reach physical maturity compared to other primates. It's not exactly safe to be a child without resources and a strong protector in harsh conditions.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/14/health/silent-struggle-a-new-theory-of-pregnancy.html

There is a tug of war between the placenta and the mother for nutrients.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160912151647.htm

Thus the mother would logically need a consistent supply of nutrients to preserve her safety and the fetus at the same time. Which makes sense. An infant would not survive motherless during the stone age. Its not like these cave babies can just drive to Safeway to buy a gallon of milk.https://academic.oup.com/bmb/article/60/1/69/322764

"The growth of a baby is constrained by the nutrients and oxygen it receives from the mother. A mother's ability to nourish her baby is established during her own fetal life and by her nutritional experiences in childhood and adolescence, which determine her body size, composition and metabolism. Mother's diet in pregnancy has little effect on the baby's size at birth, but nevertheless programmes the baby. The fetus adapts to undernutrition by changing its metabolism, altering its production of hormones and the sensitivity of tissues to them, redistributing its blood flow, and slowing its growth rate. In some circumstances, the placenta may enlarge. Adaptations to undernutrition that occur during development permanently alter the structure and function of the body."

 

[FallenApple]

To end the argument, I provide some basic results of basic economics applied to biology. Science direct is a reputable source of information.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016748701630277X

 

[FallenApple]

Is there a source for this idea? I know plenty of women who have given birth without being "incapacitated." There are many more statements in this thread I disagree with but I'd like to see this one explained.

Why this particular statement out of the many statement that I have made? If I said 1+1=3, 2+2=5, 3+3=7 they would all be equally false so there is no reason to single out anyone of them.

For this discussion, let us think of people as akin to particles with no inherent value. If we can do that, then personal biases would be eliminated. It only fair for an honest discussion.

Science is supposed to be objective and cold. Let's be 100% objective. I want to get to the bottom of this. Hard socratic questioning is good for learning.

 

[FallenApple]

You've been dating the wrong women if being rich is that important. Either that, or you're putting much more importance in that factor than you should. Sure, if you're rich it's easier to attract women, but it's also way more likely that you'd end up staying with the wrong ones, who'd dump you in a heartbeat if you were to lose your money or status. It's just like a hot woman attracting lots of men, but then having to find one who's with her not just for the looks/sex.

Being better in a positive trait is better than not having said trait. An anology: being smart increases one's chances of being a good problem solver. It's not a guarantee, but it's better than nothing. One would have more jobs to choose from. An over simplification to be sure, but it gets the point across: people without education would have no choice but to work at a low paying job. People with education can choose to work at a low paying job or a high paying job. If said educated person doesn't want the hard job, he/she can choose the simpler job. Or not. Either way, more options, more freedom.

I don't see how it can disadvantage me to become rich. By having a wider pool, I would have more options. More options means more choices I can eliminate. I can simply choose to not select the ones that are blatantly gold diggers. It's better than having a smaller pool to choose from.

The more options the better.

 

[FallenApple]

No, an anecdote is still an anecdote even if it agrees with an accepted theory.

And accepted theory is accepted theory.

 

[gmax137]

Why this particular statement ...

Many of your arguments stem from the notion that human behaviors are inherited and follow patterns laid down in the far distant past. Maybe they do, who knows? But the vision you have of the past (cavemen trading resources and security for sex) is something pulled from the air. Maybe your cavewomen were much stronger than you think. Maybe they banded together in groups; aunts uncles and friends providing mutual support. Maybe a hundred other scenarios. I object to the idea that you can suss out the form of human society tens of thousands of years ago using logic and reasoning. Before you can say today's patterns were set (in an evolutionary sense) in the past, I think you need an evidence-based understanding of how that past society actually worked. Evidence, not conjecture, about human lifestyles tens to hundreds of thousands of years ago.

For this discussion, let us think of people as akin to particles with no inherent value. If we can do that, then personal biases would be eliminated. It only fair for an honest discussion.

"Particles" are by definition indistinguishable (e.g., all electrons are the same). This is not true with humans. For example:

people without education would have no choice but to work at a low paying job.

I know several very successful people who made lots of money, with no formal education at all: they are high school dropouts and stopped paying attention in sixth grade. The point is, seemingly absolute ideas can fail when you consider the diversity of human experience.

 

[StatGuy2000]

70% of breakups are initiated by women statistically speaking.

@FallenApple, do you have a source to back up your statistic above?

 

[TeethWhitener]

And accepted theory is accepted theory.

I think you missed the point of my original post. My point was that you can't reasonably infer anything from a single data point, regardless if it's in line with something you (or others) already believe.

At this point you seem to be arguing for the sake of argument. Witness:

I don't see how it can disadvantage me to become rich. By having a wider pool, I would have more options. More options means more choices I can eliminate. I can simply choose to not select the ones that are blatantly gold diggers. It's better than having a smaller pool to choose from.

The more options the better.

Let's grant that getting richer expands your dating pool. As multiple people have already pointed out, getting older contracts your dating pool. Which process goes faster? Which one happens whether you want it to or not? Which one is to some degree contingent on good fortune?

I imagine you understand this; none of it is particularly surprising. If you're looking for a simple answer to "Is it possible to postpone having a family till later in my career (age ~40-50)?" then the answer is "It's possible; people have done it before." If you're trying to devise a to plan for that to happen, there are a lot of big contingencies to plan around. I'll wager if you're flexible enough with your definitions of career and family, you could come up with a pretty solid plan.