Novel Idea on the Origin of Life

Click For Summary
The discussion revolves around a novel theory proposed by physicist Jeremy England regarding the origin of life, suggesting that life arises from systems self-organizing to dissipate energy efficiently. Participants express skepticism about the theory, questioning its reliance on assumptions about energy efficiency. Critics argue that humans, as inefficient energy users, contradict the premise that life seeks efficiency. The conversation delves into the nature of energy dissipation, with some asserting that life is not an efficient way to utilize or dissipate energy compared to non-living systems. Theoretical scenarios, such as terrarium experiments, are proposed to explore energy dynamics in living versus non-living systems. Participants also discuss the implications of the theory on understanding life and its emergence, with some expressing hope that it could challenge creationist views. Overall, the thread highlights a mix of intrigue and skepticism about the connection between thermodynamics and the emergence of life, emphasizing the need for clearer definitions and explanations within the theory.
  • #61
Buzz Bloom said:
As I understand what I have read about biogenesis
(e.g., Vital Dust: Life as a Cosmic Imperative (1996) ISBN 0-465-09045-1)​
there are bottlenecks in the process. I have also read about several suggestions that our relatively over-sized moon may have played an important role in getting past such a bottleneck. It seem reasonable that if the moon played such a role, the fact that such a moon exists would be a bit of luck.

My take:

There are two main theories of life emergence, soup and vent. The soup theory is preferred by many chemists & biochemists as it looks into chemical pathways to replicating protocells, the vent theory is preferred by many geologists & biologists as it looks into phylogenetic pathways from geology to biology.

The main problem with soup theories is to drive some key steps. Therefore they tend to end up with many pot systems (i.e. different reactors for different reactions) and freeze/thaw or wet/dry cycles to drive steps that are non-spontaneous. That is why they can see the Moon, or Mars, as important.

Vent theories have the same problem, but they tend to stick with the observed reactors. E.g. for Orgel's theoretical problem with squandering in side reactions of non-enzymatic reaction chains, Keller et al showed that gluconeogenesis/glycolysis and the phosphate pentose pathway are as efficient without enzymes in the Hadean ocean. And for RNA replication it has been shown that vents doing PCR for replication are the only known reactors that naturally lengthen strands.

Instead you the problem to do it all without enzymes and other cycling than thermal. Since vents can produce the substrate pyruvate from H2 and CO2 with self-deposited greigite under Hadean conditions in the lab, and Keller et al just showed that there is a natural pH/FeII control of the pathways so that the inner vent would produce pentose and the outer a glucose buffer, we are halfway to RNA and an energy (polyphosphate) metabolism. (The requisite amino acids have glycolysis as starting pathway IIRC.)

Two reactions to get the purine base pairs are still outstanding... And of course no one has yet showed natural PCR akin to Keller's natural metabolisms. So make that 3 reaction steps out of some 30+ steps, depending on how you count them. The cells could be inorganic pores at the start.

TL;DR: With this rate we have a geological reactor making RNA cells quicker than the next blue moon.

The current fossil record indicates that the vent theory is likelier I find, because life may have emerged as soon as the ocean became habitable over 4.3 Ga [billion years ago]. There is a putative 4.1+ Ga fossil, and TimeTree phylogenetics prefer the first known split (bacteria/archaea) to happen 4.2+ Ga. Soup theory seems too complicated and fragile for all that. Admittedly I can't quantify the conclusion in any way.

Feeble Wonk said:
Let me see what I can find. I know I've read about it again just recently in a book by Lee Smolin.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0544245598/?tag=pfamazon01-20

He was discussing this concept during a section covering physical systems that tend to behave in ways that are anti-thermodynamic (with decreasing entropy)... such as gravitationally bound systems.

Yes, please do not say that! Thermodynamics in GR is complex since you have spacetime volumes that changes. However gravitationally bound systems on an approximately flat background can be completely understood to radiate away heat to the universe as they bind tighter, same as all systems with potential wells behave. [ http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/entropy.html ]
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Biology news on Phys.org
  • #62
Torbjorn_L said:
Yes, please do not say that! Thermodynamics in GR is complex since you have spacetime volumes that changes. However gravitationally bound systems on an approximately flat background can be completely understood to radiate away heat to the universe as they bind tighter, same as all systems with potential wells behave. [ http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/entropy.html ]
Absolutely agreed. The "decrease" in entropy was specifically limited to the isolated subsystem of increasing order. But, definitely, entropy is correspondingly increased over the entire system as a whole.
 
  • #63
Buzz Bloom said:
Hi @Feeble Wonk:
The bottle neck I was thinking of takes place before cells formed. I do not recall that de Duve discussed in detail how the process of RNA evolution took place.

For whatever it's worth, de Duve did address this issue in his earlier Vital Dust publication (1995), but he left it as an unsolved mystery... perhaps the key unsolved mystery of abiogenesis.
 
  • Like
Likes Buzz Bloom
  • #64
Torbjorn_L said:
And for RNA replication it has been shown that vents doing PCR for replication are the only known reactors that naturally lengthen strands.
Hi @Torbjorn_L:

I didn't know what PCR was, so I found the following:
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymerase_chain_reaction
The method relies on thermal cycling, consisting of cycles of repeated heating and cooling of the reaction for DNA melting and enzymatic replication of the DNA.
Can you cite any references about the PCR mechanism being used to demonstrate one or more of:
(1) RNA replication (rather than DNA)
(2) the use of RNA "enzymes" (rather than protein enzymes)
(3) evidence of PCR functiong in an open vent-like environment (rather than in test-tubes)?

Regards,
Buzz
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
676
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
5K
  • · Replies 25 ·
Replies
25
Views
5K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K