Nozzle/Turbine at the Molecular Level

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SUMMARY

The discussion focuses on the molecular-level understanding of how turbines extract thermal energy from high-pressure hot exhaust gases. It highlights the inadequacy of common explanations that merely state gases expand through turbines without detailing the conversion of temperature to kinetic energy. The user questions the role of pressure and temperature in turbine operation, emphasizing the need for a deeper understanding of momentum transfer and the physical mechanisms involved in energy conversion within the nozzle and rotor system.

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  • Understanding of thermodynamics, specifically energy conversion principles.
  • Familiarity with turbine mechanics and fluid dynamics.
  • Knowledge of the ideal gas laws and their application in high-pressure systems.
  • Basic grasp of momentum transfer and velocity triangles in fluid flow.
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  • Research the molecular dynamics of gas expansion in turbines.
  • Explore the principles of thermodynamic cycles in turbine operation.
  • Learn about the role of nozzle design in accelerating gas flow and energy conversion.
  • Investigate momentum transfer mechanisms in fluid dynamics, particularly in turbine applications.
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Mechanical engineers, aerospace engineers, and students studying thermodynamics and fluid mechanics who seek a deeper understanding of turbine operation and energy conversion processes.

HungryX2Hippo
Hey all. I feel like I understand the topic mathematically, but I have little intuition behind this. I like to try to think about what is going on at the molecular level. I've recently learned that the basis of lift that I was taught in class is not simply a pressure difference on the top and bottom side of the airfoil. It has come to make me question my knowledge...

My primary concern is how the turbine extracts temperature energy from the combustor. Pressure is as it is a force and can do work directly. Temperature in an open system isn't as intuitive. My question is how does the turbine extract the temperature energy (at the molecular level)? 99% of resources stop after saying "high pressure hot exhaust gases are expanded through the turbine. The other resources will just point at the equations, which are also not always intuitive. While the equations are derives form conservation laws, often mathematical tricks are employed to manipulate the equations and sometimes they lose their intuitive physical meaning.

As kind of a thought experiment if you had two chambers with a diaphragm and a turbine rotor separating them... If the pressure is higher in one chamber than the other (even if both are at the same temperature) when the diaphragm is ruptured the turbine would certainly start to turn as the fluid moved across it. However if you had a similar scenario with two chambers at the same pressure but different temperatures... I'm not sure the turbine would move.

Assuming the above is true... Then what part of the nozzle/rotor system in the turbine is responsible for converting that thermal energy and how exactly does it do it relative to the chamber experiment above.

Bonus question: Does the turbine get most of its lift via momentum transfer with the fluid (velocity triangles) or does it more have to do with the flow on the topside of the airfoil being faster than the bottom resulting in a dP that makes it rotate?

I apologize for the drawn out question!
 
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https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx0MqOfev7dnS01DMmtqSmhoVmc/view
 
Nidum said:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx0MqOfev7dnS01DMmtqSmhoVmc/view
That's funny. While i will take a look at this book specficially... I have two others that have come up short.

EDIT:Unless I'm missing something... This book also fails to explain the conversion of temperature to kinetic energy. Here is the relevant quote from the book:

"7.when the gas is expanded by the combustion
process (Part 4), it forces its way into the discharge
nozzles of the turbine where, because of their
convergent shape, it is accelerated to about the
speed of sound which, at the gas temperature, is
about 2,500 feet per second."

The issue with this explanation is that the gas was going to accelerate through the nozzle anyway no matter if it was hot or cold... It was at a very high pressure because of the compressor. And again they simply say the gas was "expanded" when they talk about either temperature or pressure and fail to go into detail at the molecular level, which was pretty clear in my original question.
 
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