Number of photons in a given space

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the theoretical implications of fitting an infinite number of photons into a small space, exploring concepts from quantum mechanics and thermodynamics. Participants examine the nature of photons, their massless property, and the implications of the Pauli exclusion principle.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Debate/contested, Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that because photons are massless, it might be theoretically possible to fit an infinite number into a small space.
  • Others argue against this idea, suggesting that stacking a large number of photons could lead to the formation of a black hole, though some express uncertainty about this conclusion.
  • One participant mentions the Pauli exclusion principle, asserting that it prevents two particles from occupying the same state simultaneously, but acknowledges that this applies to fermions, not bosons like photons.
  • Another participant clarifies that bosons are not constrained by the Pauli exclusion principle, allowing multiple photons to occupy the same state.
  • There is a reference to temperature dependence in the context of Bose-Einstein statistics, with some participants questioning whether this impacts the earlier statements about photon occupancy.
  • One participant asserts that, regardless of theoretical equations, it is not possible in reality to have an infinite number of photons in a finite space.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of fitting an infinite number of photons in a small space, with some supporting the idea and others contesting it based on physical principles. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of the Pauli exclusion principle and the role of temperature in this context.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of states and the conditions under which photons are considered, as well as the unresolved nature of the implications of temperature on photon occupancy.

Bradfordly1
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Because they are massless, could you theoretically fit an infinite number of Photons into a small space? There is probably an equation that proves this wrong but I'm curious.
 
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Bradfordly1 said:
Because they are massless, could you theoretically fit an infinite number of Photons into a small space?
Hmm, I do not think so. Photons have energy, and if you stack a sufficiently (VERY) large number of them together into a sufficiently small space, according to physics a black hole should form. EDIT: Actually I'm not really sure about this at the moment, I have to think about it... :biggrin: EDIT 2: I have thought about it, and I think I am correct :smile:.
 
Last edited:
I think the Pauli exclusion principle says that you can't have two particles having the same state in the same place at the same time,
Isn't that part of the definition of QM?
 
rootone said:
I think the Pauli exclusion principle says that you can't have two particles having the same state in the same place at the same time, Isn't that part of the definition of QM?
That's for fermions (they can't have the same state). Photons, however, are bosons. Particles are divided into fermions and bosons, see e.g.
Hyperphysics said:
Bosons are particles which have integer spin and which therefore are not constrained by the Pauli exclusion principle like the half-integer spin fermions.
 
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Bradfordly1 said:
Because they are massless, could you theoretically fit an infinite number of Photons into a small space? There is probably an equation that proves this wrong but I'm curious.

Whether or not an equation says it is possible, it obviously isn't possible in reality to set up a situation where you have an infinite number of photons in a finite amount of space.
 

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