Nylon deterioration from hydrogen released water vapor?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the potential effects of water vapor released from burning hydrogen gas on the deterioration of nylon used in hot air balloons. Participants explore the implications of using hydrogen as a fuel source compared to propane, focusing on the interaction between water vapor, temperature, and material integrity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that burning hydrogen releases water vapor, similar to propane, raising questions about the impact on nylon.
  • One participant suggests that the amount of water vapor and the interior temperature of the balloon could potentially lead to accelerated deterioration of the nylon.
  • Another participant references the Hindenburg disaster to highlight safety concerns associated with hydrogen, although this is contested by others who clarify that the OP is discussing burning hydrogen, not filling the balloon with it.
  • Some argue that burning hydrogen in a controlled manner is not inherently more dangerous than using propane, provided proper safety measures are in place.
  • Concerns are raised about the practical challenges of using hydrogen as a fuel, including the need for specialized storage and handling due to its properties.
  • One participant mentions that condensation from propane exhaust is expected, suggesting that moisture issues may not be unique to hydrogen.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the safety and practicality of using hydrogen as a fuel in hot air balloons. While some acknowledge the risks associated with hydrogen, others argue that burning it in a controlled environment is manageable. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific effects of water vapor on nylon.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight various assumptions about the handling of hydrogen and its comparison to propane, as well as the implications of moisture on material integrity. There are references to historical events and practical challenges that may influence the discussion.

Lord Fillmon
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Hello, I am by far not very firmiliar with physics nor engineering. I had an idea a couple years ago involving the replacement of the propane in hot air balloons with hydrogen gas as the fuel to burned to provide the heat to lift the balloon. One thing I didn't realize back then was that hydrogen releases water vapor when burned. Would the amount of water vapor released in combination with the interior temperature of the balloon cause any sort of accelerated deterioration on the nylon or would the effects be minute?
 
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Lord Fillmon said:
hydrogen releases water vapor when burned
... as does propane.
 
Ask on a ballooning forum. Model plane flyers sometimes boil nylon propellers in water to make them less brittle.
 
Lord Fillmon said:
Hello, I am by far not very firmiliar with physics nor engineering. I had an idea a couple years ago involving the replacement of the propane in hot air balloons with hydrogen gas as the fuel to burned to provide the heat to lift the balloon. One thing I didn't realize back then was that hydrogen releases water vapor when burned. Would the amount of water vapor released in combination with the interior temperature of the balloon cause any sort of accelerated deterioration on the nylon or would the effects be minute?
Ever heard of the Hindenburg ? They thought using hydrogen would be OK, too. This is what happened:

Hindenburg_disaster,_1937.jpg

​

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZ_129_Hindenburg

Hydrogen is tricky stuff to handle, as you can see from the photo.
 
I don't think the OP is talking about filling the balloon with hydrogen, just burning it.
 
russ_watters said:
I don't think the OP is talking about filling the balloon with hydrogen, just burning it.
Even more dangerous. They weren't burning hydrogen on the Hindenburg and look what happened.
 
A hydrogen grill is no more dangerous the a propane grill as long as it's used properly. the Hindenburg was a major loss and unfortunelty caused a lot of flak in the use of hydrogen for dirigibles. Safety precautions are always something that's overlooked until there's a loss due to lack of safety. Russ was correct in the fact that I wasn't talking about filling the balloon with hydrogen, rather burning it in a similar way as propane. I'm asking here because hydrogen is (at least that I'm aware of) a relatively unused fuel source on the hot air ballooning community. So, what I'm asking isn't so much about the safety as I'm aware of the risks in that area, but rather just the one scenario of how nylon would hold up against the water vapors and temperatures inside the balloon.
 
Lord Fillmon said:
A hydrogen grill is no more dangerous the a propane grill as long as it's used properly. the Hindenburg was a major loss and unfortunelty caused a lot of flak in the use of hydrogen for dirigibles. Safety precautions are always something that's overlooked until there's a loss due to lack of safety. Russ was correct in the fact that I wasn't talking about filling the balloon with hydrogen, rather burning it in a similar way as propane. I'm asking here because hydrogen is (at least that I'm aware of) a relatively unused fuel source on the hot air ballooning community. So, what I'm asking isn't so much about the safety as I'm aware of the risks in that area, but rather just the one scenario of how nylon would hold up against the water vapors and temperatures inside the balloon.
Hydrogen isn't used very much because of the difficulties in handling it. To get a decent amount of hydrogen to use as fuel, you need to liquefy it or compress it, which means you need either a cryostat or a heavy high pressure vessel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage

Propane can be handled quite easily in a steel container and liquefied without any exotic apparatus. Propane is also widely available (just ask Hank Hill), unlike hydrogen.

Hydrogen also must be manufactured, since it doesn't occur naturally. This increases the cost.

If you want to find out why H2 isn't used much in the hot air ballooning community, ask someone from there. :wink:
 
SteamKing said:
Even more dangerous. They weren't burning hydrogen on the Hindenburg and look what happened.
Huh? The Hindenburg was dangerous because the whole thing was full of hydrogen. For a hot air balloon, you just have a tank and controlled burner. It's much, much less dangerous.

Anyway, due to the high moisture content of the propane exhaust and cool air aloft, I would expect condensation on the inside of the envelope would be a normal thing.
 
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The Humanity! (someone had t say it)
 

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