seycyrus
OmCheeto said:48 according to the Obameter:
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Oh great, Politifact...
OmCheeto said:48 according to the Obameter:
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Hepth said:.
To be honest, I figured by now this was pretty much rule of thumb for federal investigators. Prior to this memo, I doubt too many would go out of their way to book someone on medicinal marijuana, let alone someone with a serious illness.
"side.
http://blogs.usdoj.gov/blog/archives/192
russ_watters said:Please note that Bush was criticized (correctly) for doing the same thing: http://michaelthompson.org/liberty/index.php?o=20060724#20060724
A II, S 3 has something to say on the matter.Al68 said:I agree, and that's not what happened.I agree, and that's not what happened.What federal law makes it illegal to decline to prosecute drug users?
There is indeed a requirement. The office requires that that care be taken to faithfully up hold the law. That noun and adjective are requirements, not options.The federal law makes one subject to prosecution, but does not require a prosecutor to prosecute it. This is true of laws in general, they allow but don't require prosecution.
The prosecutor can move various enforcements down the the to-do list and comply w/ the requirement, he can not remove it. Cancer or serious illness, from the constitutional perspective, is utterly irrelevant.It is simply and obviously not a violation of any law for a prosecutor to decline to prosecute "individuals with cancer or other serious illnesses who use marijuana as part of a recommended treatment regimen".
russ_watters said:For the rest, are you saying you interpret from the memo that prosecutions for this crime will still occur under this policy, just not as many? Or do you read in it that no prosecutions will occur? I read that no prosecutions will occur.
Of course, no State can authorize violations of federal law, and the list of factors above is not intended to describe exhaustively when a federal prosecution may be warranted.
Indeed, this memorandum does not alter in any way the Department’s authority to enforce federal law
This guidance regarding resource allocation does not “legalize” marijuana or provide a legal defense to a violation of federal law, nor is it intended to create any privileges, benefits, or rights, substantive or procedural, enforceable by any individual, party or witness in any administrative, civil, or criminal matter.
Nor does clear and unambiguous compliance with state law or the absence of one or all of the above factors create a legal defense to a violation of the Controlled Substances Act. Rather, this memorandum is intended solely as a guide to the exercise of investigative and prosecutorial discretion.
Your offices should continue to review marijuana cases for prosecution on a case-by-case basis
russ_watters said:I think you missed my point. My point is that most people are making an issue of medical marijuana because they want to get high, not because they really care that much about medicines. If pot had a lot of medical uses but didn't make people high, we wouldn't be having this conversation. The moralizing is a smokescreen.
That post irrelevant to the tread (and inflammatory) - its about enforcement policy, not the merits of the Controlled Substance Act.Biophreak said:Marijuana use has yet to be correlated to accidental deaths in ways that hard drugs such as cocaine, heroin, or methyl-amphetamines ...
Often, yes. Maybe that's bad sometimes. So?Hepth said:But the problem is, America has a tough time changing things...
Asserting it over and over again does not make it true. You need to provide a logical argument with citations.Al68 said:I agree, and that's not what happened.
I agree, and that's not what happened.
Again, this is patently false and I gave you a citation from a legal textbook that agrees: the executive does not have the authority to decline to enforce the laws it has been charged with enforcing.The federal law makes one subject to prosecution, but does not require a prosecutor to prosecute it. This is true of laws in general, they allow but don't require prosecution.
Well thank you very much! This says explicitly what I believed the memo implied! We have both dots, and I think it is perfectly logical to connect them: this was ordered by Obama in keeping with his campaign promise!OmCheeto said:That's pretty much how I view this.
Thank you for that link.
But this Obama fella sure is peculiar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/GUze-oYsswI&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/GUze-oYsswI&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
He actually keeps campaign promises. I always thought there was a rule against that.
You haven't read the entire thread, apparently. I discussed all of that and included a citation from a legal textbook confirming that the executive does not have the power to decline to enforce laws charged to it by Congress. He is not entitled to say 'that one's not worth my time to enforce'.Galteeth said:You are incorrect. The execution of law at the federal level is the responsibility of the executive. Barring a specific direction by congress, the manner in which the executive branch enforces laws is at the discretion of the executive in so long as he executes the laws faithfully. This is a a case of prioritizing enforcement. An analogous situation would be where congress declares a war. The president must execute the war, but the choice of targets and strategy are ulimately up to him.
mheslep said:Often, yes. Maybe that's bad sometimes. So?
russ_watters said:You haven't read the entire thread, apparently. I discussed all of that and included a citation from a legal textbook confirming that the executive does not have the power to decline to enforce laws charged to it by Congress. He is not entitled to say 'that one's not worth my time to enforce'.
Thank you for posting the entire link. I see the quote you refer to in the memo. I also see this:Hepth said:If you read the memo it comes across as more of a sheriff telling his deputy not to watch crosswalks for jaywalkers all day, but to rather work on higher priority crimes...
"Of course, no State can authorize violations of federal law, and the list of factors above is not intended to describe exhaustively when a federal prosecution may be warranted. "
Which is obvious he's not intending to NOT prosecute them...
EDIT:
For those that are arguing for or against what this memo said, without having actually, fully read it, please take the time to do so. Don't go on what the media is reporting from either side.
http://blogs.usdoj.gov/blog/archives/192
So my question is, if this is really about prioritizing federal resources, why does it matter what state law says? Will a cancer patient in Pennsylvania be prosecuted because Pennsylvania doesn't have a medicinal marijuana law? That's how the memo reads. If cancer patients who smoke pot really aren't worthy of the attention of federal prosecutors, then it shouldn't matter that PA has no medicinal marijuana law - they shouldn't be prosecuted. Setting up the enforcement different in different states means that the federal government is applying the law differently in different states, ceding their responsibility to enforce federal law in situations where federal law conflicts with state law*. I believe we once had a civil war over that very issue.memo said:As a general matter, pursuit of these priorities should not focus federal resources in your States on individuals whose actions are in clear and unambiguous compliance with existing state laws providing for the medical use of marijuana.
I believe mhselp put it best: he is entitled to rearrange the list of priorities, but he's not allowed to remove anything from the list.Hepth said:But is he entitled to make a suggestion of priorities?
Ok, you've responded to the parts of the memo that agree with your position: could you please respond to the parts that don't? Could you please respond to the quotes where it says "prioritization" means dropping an entire class of defendants in states where state law conflicts with federal law? I quoted it above, here it is again:After reading the memo a fourth time, just to make sure, I STILL read it as priority guidelines.
Just to make sure we are both reading that the same way: do you agree that it says not to prosecute any violators of federal law where state law conflicts with federal law on the subject?memo said:As a general matter, pursuit of these priorities should not focus federal resources in your States on individuals whose actions are in clear and unambiguous compliance with existing state laws providing for the medical use of marijuana.
russ_watters said:I responded to part of this before, but... Thank you for posting the entire link. I see the quote you refer to in the memo. I also see this: So my question is, if this is really about prioritizing federal resources, why does it matter what state law says? Will a cancer patient in Pennsylvania be prosecuted because Pennsylvania doesn't have a medicinal marijuana law? That's how the memo reads. If cancer patients who smoke pot really aren't worthy of the attention of federal prosecutors, then it shouldn't matter that PA has no medicinal marijuana law - they shouldn't be prosecuted. Setting up the enforcement different in different states means that the federal government is applying the law differently in different states, ceding their responsibility to enforce federal law in situations where federal law conflicts with state law*. I believe we once had a civil war over that very issue.
The statements of general principle in the memo are at odds with the actual wording/intent of the policy.
*And why is this being done? It is being done because Obama doesn't agree with the Federal law regarding medicinal marijuana and is nullifying it by choosing not to enforce it where he thinks he can get away with it. Based on the Youtube quote with his answer to the question, I don't think there can be any question as to Obama's motivation here. He doesn't like the law, so he's nullifying it.
russ_watters said:Just to make sure we are both reading that the same way: do you agree that it says not to prosecute any violators of federal law where state law conflicts with federal law on the subject?
Hepth said:Maybe I just read it different than you. From your quote, when I read:
"...pursuit of these priorities should not focus ..."
I read "should not focus" as "should not take a high percentage of time/manpower" not "should not pursue" or "ignore".
Isn't that how "focus" should be treated? I know this is semantics, but law is semantics. When I say "don't focus on this" I don't mean "ignore this", I mean, "don't devote a lot of thought to it".
This is why we have so many problems with interpretation of law, everyone reads it differently :)
Oh, and just to be clear, I'm trying not to cherrypick this memo for things that you say support "my position". I'm under the firm belief, as I think I stated earlier, that LAW is LAW and it applies today and should be enforced TODAY. I DEFINITELY think its ok to prosecute these people. I just think that either Obama, the deputy AG, or the AG has the right to make suggestions and prioritize the efforts of the federal drug wars.
People by now should know that medicinal marijuana, while approved by some states is still federally illegal, and they are choosing to violate that law, and thus should be prosecuted accordingly.
"Unconstitutional" means violating the constitution, not some lawyer's opinion. The text you referenced is just someone's opinion. "Appeal to authority" is just a logical fallacy, not evidence. All you provided is evidence of the author's opinion, which I have no reason to be interested in. You just proved that someone agrees with you. Is that the standard for substantiating claims? Providing evidence that someone else agrees with the claim? That would explain a lot.russ_watters said:You need to provide a logical argument with citations. Again, this is patently false and I gave you a citation from a legal textbook that agrees: the executive does not have the authority to decline to enforce the laws it has been charged with enforcing.
Demand or not, I will never use any source other than the U.S. Constitution itself for the purpose of determining if something violates it. Why would anyone capable of thinking for themselves?You are making this up as you go along. I've provided a citation: now I'm demanding one of you.
Nice ad hominem attacks.[edit] I have let you weasel too far away from this issue. Weaseling about whether this is partial or total deprioritization isn't really all that critical here:
The constitution determines whether federal law or state law has jurisdiction, not Obama. If federal law has jurisdiction, the President has the power to enforce it, and decide whether or not to prosecute any particular case. The concept of prosecutorial discretion is not a new one, and federal law simply does not require every violation to be prosecuted.Do you believe the President is entitled to place state law above federal law?
lisab said:Good points, Hepth.
Law enforcement is not a black-or-white issue. There are judgments made at each level, straight down to the beat cop.
For example, everyone knows that the speed limit is not really the speed limit. Even the most law-and-order citizen would raise holy hell if he got a speeding ticket for being just 1 mph over the limit.
Blackstone says, that a former decision is in general to be followed unless "manifestly absurd or unjust," and, in the latter case, it is declared when overruled not that the former sentence was bad law, but that it was not law.
russ_watters said:So my question is, if this is really about prioritizing federal resources, why does it matter what state law says? Will a cancer patient in Pennsylvania be prosecuted because Pennsylvania doesn't have a medicinal marijuana law? That's how the memo reads. If cancer patients who smoke pot really aren't worthy of the attention of federal prosecutors, then it shouldn't matter that PA has no medicinal marijuana law - they shouldn't be prosecuted. Setting up the enforcement different in different states means that the federal government is applying the law differently in different states, ceding their responsibility to enforce federal law in situations where federal law conflicts with state law. I believe we once had a civil war over that very issue.
russ_watters said:...The pill [Marinol] didn't work, but the brownies did. So was it a dosage issue or does the pill just not work for what it is supposed to do?
Ahh, that's a good possibility. So is that a legally acceptable position for the federal government to take? I would think not!mbrmbrg said:The memo never actually says why going after medicinal marijuana users is not an efficient use of federal resources. However, it seems to imply that the main inefficiency is the inevitable argument with the state, rather than the tears of the ill.
Um - you're going backwards here. Or are you saying that medical pot is a big enough issue that we should be digressing toward civil war over it? Me, personally - I think once the issue of states rights was settled, the federal government shouldn't be allowing it to rear its head again. As I said before, this isn't just about pot to me. Once the federal government starts letting the states peck away, they are going to keep pecking away until they hit something big.And yes, stating that arguing with state laws in inefficient does seem to be sliding back toward the build-up to the civil war. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. The civil war was absolutely necessary, because slavery had to be ended.
"States rights" has never been settled. I grew up in the 60's when the "states rights" argument was used to defend the suppression of civil rights, support the extension of "separate but equal" laws, and defend the imposition of poll taxes and "literacy requirements" to deny some groups the right to vote. Short memory? "States rights" has been a darling cause of bigots for decades. Now that some states want to ease regulations on the use of marijuana for medical conditions and allow same-sex marriage, the right demonizes "states rights" as if somehow the rational application of democracy in pursuit of the public good might cause our country to collapse into moral degeneracy.russ_watters said:Me, personally - I think once the issue of states rights was settled, the federal government shouldn't be allowing it to rear its head again.
russ_watters said:Ahh, that's a good possibility. So is that a legally acceptable position for the federal government to take? I would think not!
Um - you're going backwards here. Or are you saying that medical pot is a big enough issue that we should be digressing toward civil war over it?
Me, personally - I think once the issue of states rights was settled, the federal government shouldn't be allowing it to rear its head again. As I said before, this isn't just about pot to me. Once the federal government starts letting the states peck away, they are going to keep pecking away until they hit something big.
Of course the issue isn't settled in that sense, the issue settled is that the federal government has the legitimate authority to protect individual civil rights from infringements by a state, which is authorized by the constitution.turbo-1 said:"States rights" has never been settled. I grew up in the 60's when the "states rights" argument was used to defend the suppression of civil rights, support the extension of "separate but equal" laws, and defend the imposition of poll taxes and "literacy requirements" to deny some groups the right to vote.russ_watters said:Me, personally - I think once the issue of states rights was settled, the federal government shouldn't be allowing it to rear its head again.
Yeah, it really has...turbo-1 said:"States rights" has never been settled.
It was used - but not successfully! That's the point! It is not a legally viable position. When the federal government decided to get its act together and fix the civil rights problem, the "states rights" argument didn't prevent it.I grew up in the 60's when the "states rights" argument was used to defend the suppression of civil rights, support the extension of "separate but equal" laws, and defend the imposition of poll taxes and "literacy requirements" to deny some groups the right to vote. Short memory?
Centuries! I agree - it seems to me that most of the time when we see "states rights" based arguments, it is a smokescreen for a state wanting to do something they shouldn't - whether "states rights" existed or not. I mentioned in another thread that there are other recourses when the federal government does something it shouldn't, such as suing them (as CA has done in other cases). If the law is wrong (or the government is applying it wrong), they challenge the law. If the law is right, but the state still doesn't want to follow it, they argue "states rights" instead of actually addressing the "correctness" of the law."States rights" has been a darling cause of bigots for decades.
Can you give an example of this? I was under the impression that "states rights" normally referred to claims that a federal law was invalid ("not correct", "wrong") due to the tenth amendment.russ_watters said:If the law is right, but the state still doesn't want to follow it, they argue "states rights" instead of actually addressing the "correctness" of the law.