Observer Frame of Reference

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions for an observer's frame of reference in the context of Lorentz transformations, particularly focusing on the scenario of lightning strikes observed from both a moving train and a stationary platform. The scope includes theoretical considerations of simultaneity, length contraction, and the implications of different observational perspectives.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario where lightning strikes the platform at two points while a train passes, questioning whether the scorch marks can be aligned despite the train's high speed and length contraction.
  • Another participant asserts that the observer on the ground will see the scorch marks on the train as a distance L apart, while the marks on the platform will appear L/γ apart due to Lorentz contraction, suggesting that simultaneity is perceived differently by the two observers.
  • Some participants argue that the observer on the train perceives the lightning strikes as not simultaneous, with the strike at the rear occurring later, leading to a different interpretation of distances.
  • There is a correction from one participant regarding the perception of distance, clarifying that the lightning is not perceived as closer by the observer on the train, despite the platform appearing shorter due to relativistic effects.
  • Another participant introduces a Loedel diagram to illustrate the differences in perception of distances between the two observers, emphasizing that the observer on the train measures the platform's length based on different simultaneous events than the observer on the platform.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the simultaneity of the lightning strikes and the implications of length contraction, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without a consensus on the interpretation of the scenario.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of relativistic effects and the dependence on the observer's frame of reference, with unresolved aspects regarding the definitions of simultaneity and the measurements of distances in different frames.

surd100
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Practicing Lorentz transformations but still not absolutely clear about conditions for observer's frame of reference. For example:
Suppose that just as one of Einstein's long and surreally fast trains is passing a station platform, lightning strikes the platform at two points making scorch marks just short of each end of the train and on the platform. The strikes are judged simultaneous by an an observer on the platform who is equidistant from both strikes. The train then reverses slowly back to the platform. Can it be stopped so that the scorch marks are precisely aligned in spite of their being made while the train was moving at high speed relative to the platform and subject to length contraction?
 
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The scorch marks on the train will be a distance L apart, while the ones on the station will be a distance L/γ apart. The observer on the ground will attribute the difference to Lorentz contraction of the train. The observer on the train will say that the lightning strikes were not simultaneous - the one that hit the rear of the train happened later, and that's why it seems to be closer.
 
Bill_K said:
The scorch marks on the train will be a distance L apart, while the ones on the station will be a distance L/γ apart. The observer on the ground will attribute the difference to Lorentz contraction of the train. The observer on the train will say that the lightning strikes were not simultaneous - the one that hit the rear of the train happened later, and that's why it seems to be closer.

For the observer on the train the platform does not 'seem' to be closer. In his 3D world the platform is shorter, [STRIKE]therefore the lighning is closer.[/STRIKE]
[I have to correct myself. Actually the lightning is not closer to the observer in the train, because the lightnig happens at the end of his train with length L. The platform is indeed shorter, but the lighting is not closer to the observer in the train.]
 
Last edited:
Bill_K said:
The scorch marks on the train will be a distance L apart, while the ones on the station will be a distance L/γ apart. The observer on the ground will attribute the difference to Lorentz contraction of the train. The observer on the train will say that the lightning strikes were not simultaneous - the one that hit the rear of the train happened later, and that's why it seems to be closer.

Vandam said:
For the observer on the train the platform does not 'seem' to be closer. In his 3D world the platform is shorter, [STRIKE]therefore the lighning is closer.[/STRIKE]
[I have to correct myself. Actually the lightning is not closer to the observer in the train, because the lightnig happens at the end of his train with length L. The platform is indeed shorter, but the lighting is not closer to the observer in the train.]


The observer on the train will not see the lightning closer than the observer on the platform does. On the contrary, the observer on the train will see the lightning further than the observer on the platform does!
A Loedel diagram shows you how it works (formulas only can not visualize all this).

train-platform.jpg


Red = train, green = platform. Red distance D (distance from observer on train to lighting) is longer than green distance D (distance from observer on platform).
For the observer on the train the platform is shorter (red P). The fact that for the observer on the train the lightning happens later is not the reason why the platform is shorter. The platform is shorter because the observer on the train can only measure the platform by other simultaneous events (E1 & E3) than the observer on the platform does (E1 & E2).

V.
 

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