Obtain parameter derivatives solving PDE

In summary, the conversation discusses a partial differential equation (PDE) with a boundary condition and a set of parameters. The PDE is solved using finite difference method, but the derivatives of the function with respect to the parameters are also desired. The conversation also mentions a new given variable, but its role in the problem is not clear. A formulation for obtaining the derivatives of the function with respect to the parameters is proposed, but there are inconsistencies and changes in the wording of the problem. Further clarification and consistency is needed to continue solving the problem.
  • #1
msanx2
13
0
I have a PDE which is the following:

$$\frac {\partial n}{\partial t} = -G\cdot\frac {\partial n}{\partial L}$$

with boundary condition: $$n(t,0,p) = \frac {B}{G}$$
, where G is a constant, L is length and t is time.

G and B depend on a set of parameters, something like $$B = k_1\cdot C^a$$ and $$G = k_2\cdot C^b$$, where C is a given variable.

I am using finite differences method to integrate this PDE, but I also wanted to obtain the derivatives of n with respect to its parameters (k1, k2, a and b in this case) along the integration. How can this be done?

I thought about something like integrating these derivatives like in the previous PDE. Something like:

$$ \frac{\partial}{\partial t}\left(\frac {\partial n}{\partial p}\right) = -[\frac{\partial G}{\partial p}\frac{\partial n}{\partial L} + G\cdot\frac{\partial}{\partial L}\left(\frac {\partial n}{\partial p}\right)]$$

and apply the respective boundary conditions: $$\frac {\partial n}{\partial p}(t,0) = \frac {\partial}{\partial p}(\frac {B}{G})$$

I have already calculated this using Matlab, and the results look similar although not exactly equal to the ones obtained with finite differences (which I also don't trust much). Do you agree with this formulation?
 
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  • #2
The wording of the question is very bad.
In the first PE it appears that $n$ is a function of at least two variables t and L.
In the boundary condition n(t,0,p) they are now three variables. The vatiable p is new. We don't know what variable is equal to 0.
Then, a new "given variable" appears C with no connection to the PDE or with the preceeding variables.
I will no longer spent time on a question raised with so flippancy.
 
  • #3
Sorry if the formulation was not the most correct one. So, just to be clear:

$$\frac {\partial n(t,L,p)}{\partial t} = -G(t,p)\cdot\frac {\partial n(t,L,p)}{\partial L}$$

where $$p = \{k1,k2,a,b\}$$

One can assume that:

$$G(t,p) = k1\cdot a \cdot t$$

Boundary condition is:

$$n(t,0,p) = \frac {B(t,p)}{G(t,p)}$$

with

$$B(t,p) = k2\cdot b \cdot t$$

The C variable doesn't matter much for this question. What I would like to have your opinion on was concerning the validity of this equation:

$$ \frac{\partial}{\partial t}\left(\frac {\partial n(t,L,p)}{\partial p}\right) = - [\frac{\partial G(t,p)}{\partial p}\cdot \frac{\partial n(t,L,p)}{\partial L} + G(t,p)\cdot\frac{\partial}{\partial L}\left(\frac {\partial n(t,L,p)}{\partial p}\right)]$$

with boundary condition: $$\frac {\partial n(t,0,p)}{\partial p} = \frac {\partial}{\partial p}(\frac {B(t,p)}{G(t,p)})$$
 
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  • #4
## \frac {\partial n(t,L,p)}{\partial t} = -G(p)\cdot\frac {\partial n(t,L,p)}{\partial L} ##
General solution : ## \quad n(t,L,p)=F\left(\left(L-G(p)\:t\;\right)\:,\:p\right)##
where ## F ## is any differentiable function of two variables.
The goal now is to find which function(s) ##F## complies the boundary condition ## n(t,0,p)=\frac{B(p)}{G(p)} ##
If such a function exists, then :
## F\left(\left(-G(p)\:t\:\right)\:,\:p\right)= \frac{B(p)}{G(p)}##
The term on the left side is function of ## t ## , while the term of right side is not. This is a contradiction.
So, at first sight, there is no solution of the PDE which agrees with the boundary condition.
This draw to think that something is wrong or missing in the first part of the wording of the question.
 
  • #5
Yes, you're right I forgot it. Both B(p) and G(p) should be B(p,t) and G(p,t). I changed it already on the previous post.

I already solved the first PDE I showed using finite differences. However, I was interested in obtaining the derivatives of n(t,L,p) with respect to the parameter vector p. I was just wondering, if I could obtain those by solving the last PDE that I showed on the previous post.
 
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  • #6
Frist you wrote that ##G## is constant :

upload_2016-3-5_15-59-59.png

Now, If ##G## is fonction of ##t## , the general solution of the PDE, before any further conditions is :
## n(t,L,p)=F \left( \left( -\int G(t)dt \right)\:,\: p\: \right) ##
where ##F## is any differentiable function of two variables.
But it is not possible to continue if the wording of the question always changes.
Best regards.
 

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  • #7
First you wrote that ##G## is constant :
upload_2016-3-5_16-13-34.png


Now, if ##G## is function of ##t## the general solution of the PDE , before any further condition, becomes:
## n(t,L,p)=F\left( \left( L - \int G(p,t)dt \right)\:,\: p\: \right) ##
where ##F## is any differentiable function of two variables.
Well, it is not acceptable to continue with successive changes in the wording of the problem.
Best regards.
 

1. What is a PDE?

A PDE (partial differential equation) is a mathematical equation that involves multiple variables and their partial derivatives. It is commonly used to describe physical phenomena such as heat transfer, fluid dynamics, and quantum mechanics.

2. Why is it important to obtain parameter derivatives when solving PDEs?

Obtaining parameter derivatives in PDEs allows us to better understand how the solution is affected by changes in the parameters. This information is crucial in fields such as engineering and physics, where the behavior of a system is often dependent on various parameters.

3. What methods are used to obtain parameter derivatives in PDEs?

There are several methods used to obtain parameter derivatives in PDEs, including the method of finite differences, the method of finite elements, and the method of finite volumes. These methods involve discretizing the PDE and solving the resulting system of equations to obtain the desired derivatives.

4. Is it possible to obtain parameter derivatives analytically in PDEs?

In some cases, it is possible to obtain parameter derivatives analytically in PDEs. This is especially true for simple PDEs with well-defined boundary conditions. However, for more complex PDEs, numerical methods are often necessary to obtain accurate derivatives.

5. How are parameter derivatives used in practical applications?

Parameter derivatives in PDEs are used in a variety of practical applications, such as predicting the behavior of complex systems, optimizing designs, and solving inverse problems. They are also important in the development of numerical methods for solving PDEs, as they allow for the validation and improvement of these methods.

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