Olympic athlete dies after luge crash

[MotoH]

There has to be a balance between progression and safety. The layout of the track is fine, it is challenging to the mind and the body. But what isn't right about this track, is that the safety is lacking. There should be a way to prevent lugers from leaving the track, and have all hazards properly protected, or moved far enough away as to not be a problem.

Of course this is easy to say after the fact.

 

[turbo]

Plexiglass would have been enough to save him. At the angle he would have hit a plexiglass extension running up from the side of the track, he'd be very unlikely to break through it and he would have stayed on the track. The damage comes in hitting an obstacle full on instead of at an angle.

Exactly. A high lexan barrier angled back down onto the track would have fed him back onto the course. He might have gotten bruised up, but the sliders know how to act when they're sliding on the course without their sled. I heard a bit earlier that the officials are moving the start for men's luge farther down the course.

 

[russ_watters]

There ISN'T anything wrong with the track, the problem comes from the RACERS. For instance if we compare this again to racing cars there is nothing WRONG with the tracks, the safety mechanisms are in place because of DRIVER error, not TRACK error. That includes, going too fast, not paying attention, making mistakes while racing, trying stupid moves... etc. the list goes on.

You're making the same mistake in logic that luge officials are: that if a luger makes a mistake that everything that happens after is his fault. That just plain isn't true. The fact that the luger made a mistake does not mean the track design isn't flawed. These things are not mutually exlcusive.

The logic you use would also imply seatbelts and airbags aren't needed in cars. After all, these safety features have nothing whatsoever to do with causing/preventing accidents. Speaking as an engineer, that logic just plain doesn't fly. It is a design requirement to build-in safety features that anticipate all likely crash scenarios.

Heck, consider another hypothetical: what if the sled had broken due to the speed? That would change nothing about the discussion we are having (though we'd have an additional discussion about the equipment safety): the track would still be considered to be flawed.

...[edit]:

...the safety mechanisms are in place because of DRIVER error, not TRACK error.

Maybe you're just splitting hairs here, saying that the surface of the track is "the track". These "safety mechanisms" such as walls above the racing surface are part of the track. A track that does not include generous safety features - just like a car or a road that doesn't include safety features - is a flawed design.

 

[DavidSnider]

"The program crashed."
"Why?"
"I put a letter in the quantity field."
"Ah, user error. Nothing to worry about."

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There ISN'T anything wrong with the track, the problem comes from the RACERS. For instance if we compare this again to racing cars there is nothing WRONG with the tracks, the safety mechanisms are in place because of DRIVER error, not TRACK error. That includes, going too fast, not paying attention, making mistakes while racing, trying stupid moves... etc. the list goes on.

The entire point in competition is to push the limits. The racers are supposed to go as fast as they possibly can. Your comments are at odds with the very nature of the competition. It should not be possible to make a mistake, fly off of the track, and hit a solid post. This is a sports competition, not a war or survival contest. No one is supposed to die. It is the job of the track engineers to make sure that this sort of thing cannot happen.

 

[edward]

I just managed to find a short video clip. Most of them have been pulled. This was definitely a problem with the safety barrier along the track. Had it been 12 inches higher this never would have happened.

http://www.masslive.com/mywideworld...mpic_opening_ceremonies_mared_by_tragedy.html

 

[Evo]

There doesn't appear to be any barrier, it's completely exposed to those pillars all along that turn. That's outrageous.

 

[MotoH]

They fixed the turn now, just saw it on NBC. the whole section is basically the same idea that was proposed here, only a plywood wall with a slick surface.

 

[Evo]

They fixed the turn now, just saw it on NBC. the whole section is basically the same idea that was proposed here, only a plywood wall with a slick surface.

So, a body traveling at ~90mph thrown at a piece of plywood. How well will that work?

 

[dilletante]

Wow, that accident was not only preventable but predictable. Shame on the designers of that track.

 

[rootX]

I just managed to find a short video clip. Most of them have been pulled. This was definitely a problem with the safety barrier along the track. Had it been 12 inches higher this never would have happened.

http://www.masslive.com/mywideworld...mpic_opening_ceremonies_mared_by_tragedy.html

Thanks for the video; that changed my opinion that the track was safe.

 

[MotoH]

So, a body traveling at ~90mph thrown at a piece of plywood. How well will that work?

It is parallel with the track in the same vertical plane as the track. It will be a lot safer hitting something and sliding along it and back into the track, than having instant deceleration.

Now the men luge people are saying that the track is way to slow and far less complicated that they are starting at the lower start point.

 

[Hurkyl]

There ISN'T anything wrong with the track, ... the safety mechanisms are in place

Inadequate safety mechanism = track error.

 

[Proton Soup]

So, a body traveling at ~90mph thrown at a piece of plywood. How well will that work?

it's a vector problem. mostly, the velocity vector runs parallel to the wall, so no splat. but it keeps them from hitting the steel girders where the vector was more perpendicular to the surface.

 

[Evo]

The reason I'm asking is that the video shows him hitting the wall opposite from the pillars, then ricochets out of the luge tunnel and into the pillar. If there was a piece of plywood there, he would have flown into the plywood instead of directly into the pillar. I guess that will slow him down, but is it safe enough?

 

[MotoH]

The reason I'm asking is that the video shows him hitting the wall opposite from the pillars, then ricochets out of the luge tunnel and into the pillar. If there was a piece of plywood there, he would have flown into the plywood instead of directly into the pillar. I guess that will slow him down, but is it safe enough?

It should be. Although this is where the driver error came in I believe. He shouldn't have walked that far up onto the opposite wall coming out of the turn.

 

[Proton Soup]

i think it would be much safer, but there's not much you can do to prevent injuries from tumbling.

 

[Evo]

i think it would be much safer, but there's not much you can do to prevent injuries from tumbling.

He didn't tumble, he hit the wall and shot straight out at high speed.

Why is this luge track inside a structure filled with pillars? Aren't these usually outside in the open?

 

[MotoH]

He didn't tumble, he hit the wall and shot straight out at high speed.

Why is this luge track inside a structure filled with pillars? Aren't these usually outside in the open?

Tumbling inside the track, now that there is a wall there. Most luge participants, if they do crash, will tumble for a while and eventually straighten out into a manageable position.

From my understanding, most of the track is covered due to weather conditions.

The pillars shouldn't have been that close to the edge of the track, but who would have guessed someone would have came flying out of the track?

 

[rootX]

He didn't tumble, he hit the wall and shot straight out at high speed.

Why is this luge track inside a structure filled with pillars? Aren't these usually outside in the open?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG99ULoWXHU

1. It looks like they never get out of the course
2. Most of them have pillars

 

[lisab]

The International Luge Federation (FIL) http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olympics/vancouver/sliding/2010-02-13-luge-death-track-probe_N.htm" .

"It appears after a routine run, the athlete came late off curve 15 and did not compensate properly to make (a) correct entrance into curve 16. This resulted in a late entrance into curve 16 and although the athlete worked to correct the problem, he eventually lost control of the sled resulting in the tragic accident.

"The technical officials for the FIL were able to retrace the path of the athlete and concluded there was no indication that the accident was caused by deficiencies in the track."

"Although he attempted to correct the situation, he shot up into the roof of curve 16, the angle in which he did so resulted in him experiencing a G-force that literally collapsed his body rendering it difficult to control the sled, which in this case he was not able to do," FIL secretary general Svein Romstad said at a press conference with FIL president Josef Fendt and Vancouver Organizing Committee sports vice president Tim Gayda on Saturday. "Once this happened, he was literally at the mercy of the path of the sled."

..."he was at the mercy of the path of the sled" was what killed him? I don't buy it. The "path of the sled" is determined by the track design! That he crashed was his fault; that he flew into a pole was due to the design of the track.

 

[MotoH]

The sleds path was on its way towards the opposite turn side wall.

It says he had a late entrance into curve 16, which instantly makes it so he will not follow the intended course of the sled, which made the sled slam into the wall because this was the newly modified course of the sled.

 

[Proton Soup]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG99ULoWXHU

1. It looks like they never get out of the course
2. Most of them have pillars

1. is that The Offspring playing?

2. at ~1:35 one almost leaves the course

 

[Proton Soup]

He didn't tumble, he hit the wall and shot straight out at high speed.

what i meant is that even if an athlete is not ejected from the track, tumbling could still injure them more than simply skidding. i'd expect a few spinal injuries, pulled ligaments, etc.

but yes, that guy was tumbling before he hit the upright. this is the graphic scene, and is even slowed down on replay, so view at your own discretion.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/video/nodar-kumaritashvili-video-fatal-luge-crash-9823485

 

[Cyrus]

Holy sh** that guy was flying!

 

[Moonbear]

..."he was at the mercy of the path of the sled" was what killed him? I don't buy it. The "path of the sled" is determined by the track design! That he crashed was his fault; that he flew into a pole was due to the design of the track.

I agree! The track should be designed in a way that if you completely lose control of your sled, you aren't ejected from the track! As I watch the clip of him flipping over in that turn, it seems like as the sled came up the wall, it was the curvature of the wall that sent him in a trajectory over the top of the far wall. He hit the top of the opposite wall pretty hard before flipping out onto what look like possibly spectator benches and a support. It looks like the real problem is that the wall on the side he flew out was too low for the arc the sled and rider are thrown in when riding high and flipping on the opposing wall. They may have designed it with the sled in mind (the sled stayed in the track) but forgot to account for the driver starting higher and being thrown from the sled and out of the track.

When you're building a track for a sport in which people are moving close to 90 mph with nothing to protect them but a helmet and padding, you better enclose curves in a way that they can't fly out the track into areas with supports or hit edges of walls that are more likely to cause an injury than the tumbling alone.

If that track passed on design standards for the sport, then someone needs to reconsider those standards and fix what is obviously a safety flaw.

 

[Evo]

At that speed a split second lean in the wrong direction is all it takes to send you out of control. A split second error shouldn't result in death.

 

[Anti-Meson]

His death, albeit it sad, is a reminder to people that some sports are dangerous and as such carries the risk of death. I hope that from his death, it will remind fellow athletes that their safety is primary and their success is secondary and that it will tighten up safety in following years.

 

[BobG]

Olympic luge events will start farther down the track than originally planned, officials said Saturday, a decision they made with the "emotional component" of athletes in mind following the death of a Georgian competitor.

They reiterated that the lightning-fast track was safe for competition, and Olympic officials said they were "completely satisfied" with the adjustments.

"We never said it is too fast," International Luge Federation president Josef Fendt said.

An extra session of men's training, as well as all four runs of the men's event -- two on Saturday, two on Sunday -- will begin from the women's start ramp.

Meanwhile, the women's and doubles entrants in the Olympic field will now start even lower, at the junior start position, between the fifth and sixth curves.

"The decisions made are to deal with the emotional component for the athletes," Luge federation secretary general Svein Romstad said.

http://sports.espn.go.com/olympics/winter/2010/luge/news/story?id=4911258

Well, at least they made some changes.

 

[russ_watters]

The reason I'm asking is that the video shows him hitting the wall opposite from the pillars, then ricochets out of the luge tunnel and into the pillar. If there was a piece of plywood there, he would have flown into the plywood instead of directly into the pillar. I guess that will slow him down, but is it safe enough?

It's a geometry problem then - if he hit the wall at a 30 degree angle, that's half the speed and a quarter the energy of full head-on collision.

 

[Monique]

It's a tragic accident, but you should be aware that there are many design dangers in normal life as well. What do most road-side guardrails look like, for instance? Like this:
http://tacservicesoftexas.com/img/5-guardrail.jpg

These are a real danger for motor-riders, especially if they lose control of the vehicle in a bend of the road. What happens is that a motorist will fall into the ground and with some luck slide under the guardrail. If they are really unlucky they will slam into the poles resulting in amputation or instant death. Luckily they have realized the design error and are now installing modified guardrails. The same goes for many trucks in the US, they are a major danger as well, because they do not have side-skirts.

I'm sure this accident will mean that the luge tracks will be analyzed with scrutiny, but I'm not sure how long that effect will last. Primarily I think he athlete should be aware of the dangers in their sport, whose fault is it when a tour-de-france cyclist drives off the side of the road into a ravine? If you go for the max, you take a lot of risk.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Holy sh** that guy was flying!

Right after it happened, there was another video floating that showed him hitting the pole from the other side of the track and almost right in front of the camera. It was absolutely brutal.

 

[russ_watters]

It's a tragic accident, but you should be aware that there are many design dangers in normal life as well. What do most road-side guardrails look like, for instance? Like this:
http://tacservicesoftexas.com/img/5-guardrail.jpg

These are a real danger for motor-riders, especially if they lose control of the vehicle in a bend of the road. What happens is that a motorist will fall into the ground and with some luck slide under the guardrail. If they are really unlucky they will slam into the poles resulting in amputation or instant death. Luckily they have realized the design error and are now installing modified guardrails. The same goes for many trucks in the US, they are a major danger as well, because they do not have side-skirts.

I'm sure this accident will mean that the luge tracks will be analyzed with scrutiny, but I'm not sure how long that effect will last. Primarily I think he athlete should be aware of the dangers in their sport, whose fault is it when a tour-de-france cyclist drives off the side of the road into a ravine? If you go for the max, you take a lot of risk.

I'm not sure I follow you. You're talking about motorcyclists and bicyclists? Simply put, a guard rail is there to keep cars from going off the road. If a motorcyclist hits any barrier designed for a car, the result is likely to be unpleasant.

As for the Tour-de-France, they use normal roads, not a closed course designed for cycling. Still, I think it would be worthwhile to install temporary cyclist-appropriate barriers at particularly dangerous curves.

 

[Monique]

I'm not sure I follow you. You're talking about motorcyclists and bicyclists? Simply put, a guard rail is there to keep cars from going off the road. If a motorcyclist hits any barrier designed for a car, the result is likely to be unpleasant.

I'm talking about motorcyclists. You are right that the result is unpleasant when they hit these guardrails designed for cars, that's why something needs to be done about it: they use the same freeways and hi-ways as cars do. 15% of motorcyclist deaths are attributed to the guardrails.

A simple solution, flexible skirting on the bottom:
http://www.amt.nl/upload/116381_657_1176705717646-motorvriendelijke_vangrail.gif

 

[RonL]

A single person dies and for that I'm truly sorry, but where is all that logic and reasoning when highway speeds all across the country were raised to 70 mph (and more) and a clear increase of speed related deaths began to show everywhere ?

Now days the most dangerous thing I do, is drive across town.

Ron

 

[Cyrus]

A single person dies and for that I'm truly sorry, but where is all that logic and reasoning when highway speeds all across the country were raised to 70 mph (and more) and a clear increase of speed related deaths began to show everywhere ?

Now days the most dangerous thing I do, is drive across town.

Ron

I don't agree with that. The autobahn is drive as fast as you want, and the accident rates are lower than ours. We simply don't know how to drive.

 

[RonL]

I don't agree with that. The autobahn is drive as fast as you want, and the accident rates are lower than ours. We simply don't know how to drive.

Well, I guess I can't disagree with that.

Wonder what it would take to get people to respect, their rights, machines, and each other?

Hold them to FAA standards??

 

[Cyrus]

Well, I guess I can't disagree with that.

Wonder what it would take to get people to respect, their rights, machines, and each other?

Hold them to FAA standards??

Well, according to the history channel (where I got this fact from) its a lot more rigorous to get a driving license in Germany. Driving on the autobahn is strictly pass on the right. Here in the states, its free for all cut across five lanes to the off-ramp madness!

 

[MotoH]

Finland has the toughest driving school in the world, it is three years long and has all sorts of crazy things. They of course have produced the most WRC championship drivers ever. They also invented the Scandinavian flick!

 

[pantaz]

. . .
If that track passed on design standards for the sport, then someone needs to reconsider those standards and fix what is obviously a safety flaw.

The moment they (International Luge Federation, or the Olympic officials) admit there is a flaw, there will be attorneys jumping out of the shadows with lawsuits waving.

 

[berkeman]

Well, according to the history channel (where I got this fact from) its a lot more rigorous to get a driving license in Germany. Driving on the autobahn is strictly pass on the right. Here in the states, its free for all cut across five lanes to the off-ramp madness!

Having been a taxi passenger on the autobahn at over a buck (and a sportbike rider on racetracks in the US at way over a buck), I can testify that some of the drivers on the autobahn are idiots. It's good that they have lower accident stats than stateside. I'm not sure what that means for a lesson for us. I'd spend more time researching it, but the idiots at autobahn speeds scared me a little bit more than the idiots at domestic speed limit speeds.