Organic food is a 'deceitful, expensive scam'

In summary: Texas coast can cost the seafood industry as much as $2 billion....The Gulf of Mexico dead zone is now the size of New Jersey and is continuing to grow. It's not just a problem for the Gulf of Mexico. The dead zone also reduces the oxygen levels in the Gulf of Mexico’s water, which harms marine life and can lead to hypoxia events in other parts of the world.The article goes on to say that "about 40% of all U.S. chemical fertilizer goes to agricultural production." [ref]So, basically, synthetic fertilizers and pesticides are poisoning our waterways and contributing to dead zones.
  • #1
BWV
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"Plant pathologist Steven Savage of the CropLife Foundation analyzed the data from the https://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Publications/2012/Online_Resources/Organics/index.php, which reported various measures of productivity from most of the certified organic farms in the nation, and compared them to those at conventional farms.

His findings were extraordinary. In 59 of the 68 crops surveyed, there was a yield gap, which means that, controlling for other variables, organic farms were producing less than conventional farms. Many of those shortfalls were large: for strawberries, organic farms produced 61 percent less than conventional farms; for tangerines, 58 percent less; for cotton, 45 percent less; and for rice, 39 percent less.

As Savage observed: “To have raised all U.S. crops as organic in 2014 would have required farming of 109 million more acres of land. That is an area equivalent to all the parkland and wildland areas in the lower 48 states, or 1.8 times as much as all the urban land in the nation.”

Perhaps the most illogical and least sustainable aspect of organic farming in the long term will turn be the absolute exclusion of “genetically engineered” plants that were modified with the most precise and predictable modern molecular techniques.

Except for wild berries and wild mushrooms, virtually all the fruits, vegetables, and grains in our diet have been genetically improved by one technique or another—often as a result of seeds having been irradiated or via “wide crosses,” which move genes from one species or genus to another in ways that do not occur in nature. (These more-primitive techniques of genetic modification are acceptable in organic agriculture.)

In recent decades, we have seen genetic engineering advances such as plants that are disease-, pest-, drought-, and flood-resistant. The result has been higher yields for farmers and lower costs for consumers. As genetic engineering’s successes continue to emerge, the gap between the methods of modern, high-tech agriculture and organic agriculture will become a chasm, and organic will be increasingly unable to compete."

http://www.newsweek.com/campaign-organic-food-deceitful-expensive-scam-785493
 
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  • #2
I understand the "expensive" side. I do not understand why this is "deceitful" and a "scam".

We are so used to cheap, tasteless food. And farmers are not being paid enough to sustain their farms. I'm not advocating organic food. I'm advocating quality food, because in the end, that is the goal.

Zz.
 
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  • #3
You forgot "environmentally harmful", but yeah.

["ha egg mful"? Go home, autocorrect; you're drunk!]
 
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  • #4
ZapperZ said:
I understand the "expensive" side. I do not understand why this is "deceitful" and a "scam".
When you are paying for something you aren't getting, you are being deceived. Setting aside quality concerns because they can cut both ways, organic is marketed as being healthier and more "sustainable", both of which are generally false.
 
  • #5
ZapperZ said:
. And farmers are not being paid enough to sustain their farms

evidence?
 
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  • #6
russ_watters said:
When you are paying for something you aren't getting, you are being deceived. Setting aside quality concerns because they can cut both ways, organic is marketed as being healthier and more "sustainable", both of which are generally false.

But there ARE organic farms that fit both! We also can't say ALL organic farms and produce are not "healthier" and "more sustainable", because I can show you TWO farms that I've visited in northern Indiana that fit the bill. Do I claim that ALL of them are such? No, because it definitely depends on the type of "farming" that they are doing, and also who's doing the trumpeting.

But I do not understand why the entire industry is being given that label. I do not buy organic products all the time. I find many "organic broth", for example, to be bland and awful. But I have had some of the best tomatoes and many other produce that are organic, so much so that I'd buy them even if they are not. Again, the issue here is quality, and I'd like to see a one-on-one comparison of those.

Zz.
 
  • #7
How does the use of synthetic fertilizers and certain pesticides (organic uses pesticides as well) make produce taste worse?
 
  • #8
BWV said:
How does the use of synthetic fertilizers and certain pesticides (organic uses pesticides as well) make produce taste worse?

I ran across this statement a few weeks ago;
"Most produce available now has been bred or engineered to last through rough handling in distribution centers and long distances in trucks–not for taste." [ref]​

So, synthetic fertilizers aren't the problem there.

Another thing I ran across recently, regarding environmental impact;
"A record-breaking, New Jersey-sized dead zone was measured by scientists in the Gulf of Mexico this week—a sign that water quality in U.S. waterways is worse than expected.
...
Preliminary reports from the United States Geological Survey (USGS) align with the observation, estimating that 165,000 metric tons of nitrate–about 2,800 train cars of fertilizer—and 22,600 metric tons of phosphorus flowed down the Mississippi and Atchafalaya rivers into the Gulf of Mexico in May.
" [ref]​

And this;

"This is no small economic matter. A single low-oxygen event (known scientifically as hypoxia) off the coasts of New York State and New Jersey in 1976 covering a mere 385 square miles (1,000 square kilometers) of seabed ended up costing commercial and recreational fisheries in the region more than $500 million. As it stands, roughly 83,000 tons (75,000 metric tons) of fish and other ocean life are lost to the Chesapeake Bay dead zone each year—enough to feed half the commercial crab catch for a year.

"More than 212,000 metric tons [235,000 tons] of food is lost to hypoxia in the Gulf of Mexico," says marine biologist Robert Diaz of The College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., who surveyed the dead zones along with marine ecologist Rutger Rosenberg of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden. "That's enough to feed 75 percent of the average brown shrimp harvest from the Louisiana gulf. If there was no hypoxia and there was that much more food, don't you think the shrimp and crabs would be happier? They would certainly be fatter."
[ref]​
So, it strikes me that conventional farmers could learn just a little bit from organic farmers.

Personally, I've started growing my own food.
Haven't figured out how to control the aphids yet. Little b*****d's!

Crop yield to date, after 18 months: 8 lemons.
But, at least I'm trying.
 
  • #9
ZapperZ said:
But there ARE organic farms that fit both! We also can't say ALL organic farms and produce are not "healthier" and "more sustainable"...
Well that's nice, but totally meaningless, right? You can replace "organic" with "conventional" in both sentences and it is equally true and meaningless. Individual cases are not the point here: the point is that it is not generally true - and more importantly, not required by the standard - that "organic" means healthier or more sustainable. Contrast that with the "low sodium" label, which literally means the product has less sodium than a comparable product without the label.
 
  • #10
OmCheeto said:
I ran across this statement a few weeks ago;
"Most produce available now has been bred or engineered to last through rough handling in distribution centers and long distances in trucks–not for taste." [ref]​

So, synthetic fertilizers aren't the problem there.

Right, its a non-issue relative to organic vs. conventional produce

Another thing I ran across recently, regarding environmental impact;
"A record-breaking, New Jersey-sized dead zone was measured by scientists in the Gulf of Mexico this week—a sign that water quality in U.S. waterways is worse than expected.
...
Preliminary reports from the United States Geological Survey (USGS) align with the observation, estimating that 165,000 metric tons of nitrate–about 2,800 train cars of fertilizer—and 22,600 metric tons of phosphorus flowed down the Mississippi and Atchafalaya rivers into the Gulf of Mexico in May.
" [ref]​

And this;

"This is no small economic matter. A single low-oxygen event (known scientifically as hypoxia) off the coasts of New York State and New Jersey in 1976 covering a mere 385 square miles (1,000 square kilometers) of seabed ended up costing commercial and recreational fisheries in the region more than $500 million. As it stands, roughly 83,000 tons (75,000 metric tons) of fish and other ocean life are lost to the Chesapeake Bay dead zone each year—enough to feed half the commercial crab catch for a year.

"More than 212,000 metric tons [235,000 tons] of food is lost to hypoxia in the Gulf of Mexico," says marine biologist Robert Diaz of The College of William & Mary in Williamsburg, Va., who surveyed the dead zones along with marine ecologist Rutger Rosenberg of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden. "That's enough to feed 75 percent of the average brown shrimp harvest from the Louisiana gulf. If there was no hypoxia and there was that much more food, don't you think the shrimp and crabs would be happier? They would certainly be fatter."
[ref]​
So, it strikes me that conventional farmers could learn just a little bit from organic farmers.

You would prefer it was an equivalent amount of manure? All agriculture has environmental issues, and nitrate runoff is an issue but organic farming is not the solution. Animal s*** is polluting as well plus there simply is not enough natural fertilizer to feed everyone. Most credit the invention of synthetic fertilizer as saving more lives than any other single advance of civilization

Personally, I've started growing my own food.
Haven't figured out how to control the aphids yet. Little b*****d's!

Crop yield to date, after 18 months: 8 lemons.
But, at least I'm trying.

So about $2 in produce
 
  • #11
ZapperZ said:
But I do not understand why the entire industry is being given that label.

Because the organic food industry as a whole, and many of those who support the industry, employs deceitful ads, promotes misinformation about nutrition and health, actively opposes scientific progress in improving food quantity and quality, and a whole slew of other things. There's a local food market that shows up about once a month or so at my college that I always avoid because of the heavy marketing of organic foods. I'll stop and buy a watermelon from the guy selling them from the back of his truck on the side of the road before I buy from anyone labeling their foods as organic. This is a huge pet peeve of mine. I hate it. There aren't enough text modifiers I can throw on that word to emphasise it enough.

ZapperZ said:
But I do not understand why the entire industry is being given that label. I do not buy organic products all the time. I find many "organic broth", for example, to be bland and awful. But I have had some of the best tomatoes and many other produce that are organic, so much so that I'd buy them even if they are not. Again, the issue here is quality, and I'd like to see a one-on-one comparison of those.

But do they taste good because they're organic? Because they were grown locally? Because of another reason? I seriously doubt their taste comes from being organic. I believe it comes from being grown locally or because it's a different type which tastes better but isn't as well suited for mass marketing.

Really the problem comes down to the widespread belief that "natural" products are better than "artificial" products that's become entrenched in an alarming number of people. That is the primary reason the label "organic" even exists.
 
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  • #12
Just in case the previous response wasn't direct enough:
OmCheeto said:
Another thing I ran across recently, regarding environmental impact;
"A record-breaking, New Jersey-sized dead zone was measured by scientists in the Gulf of Mexico this week—a sign that water quality in U.S. waterways is worse than expected.
...
Preliminary reports from the United States Geological Survey (USGS) align with the observation, estimating that 165,000 metric tons of nitrate–about 2,800 train cars of fertilizer—and 22,600 metric tons of phosphorus flowed down the Mississippi and Atchafalaya rivers into the Gulf of Mexico in May.
" [ref]​

So, it strikes me that conventional farmers could learn just a little bit from organic farmers.
[Synthetic] Fertilizer was used as the measuring stick example, but quite obviously the active ingredients in synthetic fertilizer and "natural" fertilizer like manure have to be the same. So the article could have easily used manure as the measuring stick...but I suppose that wouldn't fit the typical bias.

http://www.mass.gov/eea/agencies/massdep/water/watersheds/manure-impacts-on-surface-water-quality.html
 
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  • #13
russ_watters said:
Just in case the previous response wasn't direct enough:

[Synthetic] Fertilizer was used as the measuring stick example, but quite obviously the active ingredients in synthetic fertilizer and "natural" fertilizer like manure have to be the same. So the article could have easily used manure as the measuring stick...but I suppose that wouldn't fit the typical bias.

http://www.mass.gov/eea/agencies/massdep/water/watersheds/manure-impacts-on-surface-water-quality.html

That does make you think. I like the fact that they point out solutions, which both parties can adopt.

Btw, I use totally synthetic fertilizers in my outdoor crops. Until I figure out how to get cow manure into my gutter gardens, I'm sticking with MiracleGro®.

BWV said:
So about $2 in produce

Actually, that's just my indoor-outdoor crop. My outdoor crop yield has been quite a bit higher. But I've only been doing this "effective" gardening thing for about 3 years now, and the learning curve is much steeper than I expected. And with fewer years that I will survive, than years before I figure this out, I moved the experiment indoors. I've a VERY short growing season here.

hmmmm...

One of only two farmers I follow is someone who named their farm Polyface.
According to some googling, his farm has revenues of ≈>$1,000,000 and consists of 500 acres[wiki].
That's $2000/acre.

According to the USDA, the average farm generates only $450/acre. [ref]

According to my calculations, from my flower pot size(30 cm diameter), my $2 annual yield, yields a net of $114,000/acre.

hmmmm...
 
  • #14
Searched "peeves, deceit" and got this; Amazon listing "shipping" separately and toggling back and forth bargain prices daily to hourly for "selected" movies is not deceitful so much on Amazon's part as it is passing "vendor's deceits" along to the end customer; just a heads up for "them as sees apparent 'bargains.'" There're a number of copyright "white slavers" out there doing this, and Amazon is complicit, but not liable.

Move as you see fit.
 
  • #15
russ_watters said:
Well that's nice, but totally meaningless, right? You can replace "organic" with "conventional" in both sentences and it is equally true and meaningless. Individual cases are not the point here: the point is that it is not generally true - and more importantly, not required by the standard - that "organic" means healthier or more sustainable. Contrast that with the "low sodium" label, which literally means the product has less sodium than a comparable product without the label.
Only commenting on the 'low sodium' labeling, I use that as a possible indicator for no added salt. At least that label on stacks of canned goods means that I read the ingredients list printed on the can. For canned tuna 'low sodium' often means no added salt but also no additives such as sodium pyrophosphate.

Now here lies the deceit; tuna without the added sodium compounds costs significantly more to the consumer trying to maintain healthy blood pressure or who does not like the taste of salt or pyrophosphates in their food.
 
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  • #16
Just eat tuna in only small amounts.
 
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  • #17
OmCheeto said:
Personally, I've started growing my own food.
Haven't figured out how to control the aphids yet. Little b*****d's!
Aphids... If you want to avoid the pyrethrum, I recommend setting the Ladybugs or Praying Mantises loose on them. The Mantis is very cool and interesting to watch at work, the Ladybugs also but the little buggers can take a big bite out of you if they run out of Aphids. They also work great on spider mite infestations, check the underside of your leaves for those, tiny red bugs but big trouble once they get established.
 
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  • #18
Bystander said:
Searched "peeves, deceit" and got this; Amazon listing "shipping" separately and toggling back and forth bargain prices daily to hourly for "selected" movies...
I don't understand what this means. Can you rephrase/explain in more detail what they are doing?
 
  • #19
BWV said:
"Plant pathologist Steven Savage of the CropLife Foundation analyzed the data from the https://www.agcensus.usda.gov/Publications/2012/Online_Resources/Organics/index.php, which reported various measures of productivity from most of the certified organic farms in the nation, and compared them to those at conventional farms.

His findings were extraordinary. In 59 of the 68 crops surveyed, there was a yield gap, which means that, controlling for other variables, organic farms were producing less than conventional farms. Many of those shortfalls were large: for strawberries, organic farms produced 61 percent less than conventional farms; for tangerines, 58 percent less; for cotton, 45 percent less; and for rice, 39 percent less.

As Savage observed: “To have raised all U.S. crops as organic in 2014 would have required farming of 109 million more acres of land. That is an area equivalent to all the parkland and wildland areas in the lower 48 states, or 1.8 times as much as all the urban land in the nation.”

Perhaps the most illogical and least sustainable aspect of organic farming in the long term will turn be the absolute exclusion of “genetically engineered” plants that were modified with the most precise and predictable modern molecular techniques.

Except for wild berries and wild mushrooms, virtually all the fruits, vegetables, and grains in our diet have been genetically improved by one technique or another—often as a result of seeds having been irradiated or via “wide crosses,” which move genes from one species or genus to another in ways that do not occur in nature. (These more-primitive techniques of genetic modification are acceptable in organic agriculture.)

In recent decades, we have seen genetic engineering advances such as plants that are disease-, pest-, drought-, and flood-resistant. The result has been higher yields for farmers and lower costs for consumers. As genetic engineering’s successes continue to emerge, the gap between the methods of modern, high-tech agriculture and organic agriculture will become a chasm, and organic will be increasingly unable to compete."

http://www.newsweek.com/campaign-organic-food-deceitful-expensive-scam-785493
Wouldn't it stand to reason that organic produce using no pesticides and whatnot would have lower yields than" conventional" farming? I also fail to to see the deceit...?
 
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  • #20
russ_watters said:
I don't understand what this means.
Amazon's prices change for movies, going up and down, but it's all illusory; today it's X$, tomorrow, X-5, but there's a "delivery" charge of five. Ship of Fools has been on my "list" forever, and it regularly "goes on sale" for seven bucks, but includes a five dollar "delivery." ..., and I ain't going to pay it.
 
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  • #21
Oldman too said:
Aphids... If you want to avoid the pyrethrum, I recommend setting the Ladybugs or Praying Mantises loose on them. The Mantis is very cool and interesting to watch at work, the Ladybugs also but the little buggers can take a big bite out of you if they run out of Aphids. They also work great on spider mite infestations, check the underside of your leaves for those, tiny red bugs but big trouble once they get established.
Depending on what is pesting you, you might want to make a place near the garden for a wasp nest.
Several years ago, I have a garden plagued by caterpillars and other things.
By accident I stored some aquariums on end (to prevent them from filling with rainwater) near them and some wasps started making nest in them (out of the rain, but nice and airy). The wasps eliminated caterpillars that year and the plants did better. They went away in the winter, but can back every year afterwards and never stung me, even when I stuck my hand right next to their nest.
 
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  • #22
OmCheeto said:
I ran across this statement a few weeks ago;
"Most produce available now has been bred or engineered to last through rough handling in distribution centers and long distances in trucks–not for taste." [ref]
Exactly. Ever compared a store-bought strawberry (almost all white pith and totally tasteless) with a farm-grown one (organic or not) ? No comparison. One is food, the other is dreck.
 
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  • #24
Bystander said:
Amazon's prices change for movies, going up and down, but it's all illusory; today it's X$, tomorrow, X-5, but there's a "delivery" charge of five. Ship of Fools has been on my "list" forever, and it regularly "goes on sale" for seven bucks, but includes a five dollar "delivery." ..., and I ain't going to pay it.
The "delivery charge" is only tacked on when it is on sale?
 
  • #25
Klystron said:
Now here lies the deceit; tuna without the added sodium compounds costs significantly more to the consumer trying to maintain healthy blood pressure or who does not like the taste of salt or pyrophosphates in their food.
What is the deceit there?
 
  • #26
sbrothy said:
Wouldn't it stand to reason that organic produce using no pesticides and whatnot would have lower yields than" conventional" farming?
Yes.
I also fail to to see the deceit...?
The deceit comes in when "organic" advocates claim there's no yield hit.

BTW, everyone, this thread is 4 years old...
 
  • #27
russ_watters said:
The "delivery charge" is only tacked on when it is on sale?
See #23 links. The surcharge/delivery thing is explained in them.
 
  • #28
phinds said:
Exactly. Ever compared a store-bought strawberry (almost all white pith and totally tasteless) with a farm-grown one (organic or not) ? No comparison. One is food, the other is dreck.
Setting aside the implication that the "store-bought" strawberry was grown in the store, another difference might be availability. You can't eat if if you can't get it.
 
  • #29
Oldman too said:
See #23 links. The surcharge/delivery thing is explained in them.
I don't see an answer to my question in those links.
 
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  • #30
russ_watters said:
I don't see an answer to my question in those links.
The "delivery charge" applies to all sales, not just sale items. It's a fuel increase thing, they also raised prime rates.
 
  • #31
Oldman too said:
The "delivery charge" applies to all sales, not just sale items. It's a fuel increase thing, they also raised prime rates.
So...the sale really is a sale and there's no deceit? This is why I'd like an answer/clarification from @Bystander .
 
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  • #32
As this thread received an Easter resurrection, might as well add this - Sri Lanka actually mandated organic farming, banning artificial fertilizer, with predictable results:

Sri Lanka’s Plunge Into Organic Farming Brings Disaster​

The economically troubled country banned chemical fertilizers without preparing farmers, prompting a surge in food prices and worries about shortages.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/07/world/asia/sri-lanka-organic-farming-fertilizer.htmlunfortunately fertilizer prices are spiking due to high nat gas prices and the war in Ukraine, making a tough growing season for farmers

maybe Peruvian guano exports will become economical again? Is that considered organic?
 
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  • #33
russ_watters said:
BTW, everyone, this thread is 4 years old...
Not anymore...
 
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  • #34
russ_watters said:
This is why I'd like an answer/clarification from
It's always the same price. The "deception" is in the presentation/s of the charges; just watch the price/s for Ship of Fools for a little while.
 
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  • #35
BWV said:
maybe Peruvian guano exports will become economical again? Is that considered organic?
Yes, unless adulterated.
 

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