Phasor Leading and Lagging Angles

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the representation of phase relationships between two voltage phasors, specifically focusing on the concepts of leading and lagging angles. Participants explore whether it is mathematically valid to express these angles using negative displacements and how this affects the interpretation of lead and lag relationships.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents two voltage phasors and describes their relative phase shifts using both leading and lagging terms.
  • Another participant suggests that leading and lagging angles can also be expressed using negative angles, providing examples of equivalent expressions.
  • Further clarification is sought regarding the meaning of negative angles in the context of leading and lagging, questioning the necessity of using both terms simultaneously.
  • There is a suggestion that double negatives can be acceptable but should be used carefully, with a preference for positive angles for clarity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the use of negative angles in describing phase relationships. While some agree that negative angles can represent equivalent phase shifts, others question the clarity and necessity of this approach, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the cyclic nature of sinusoidal functions and the general expression for phase shifts, but there is no consensus on the best practices for using negative angles in this context.

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Consider two voltage phasors:

V1 = 1 volt @ 50°, and
V2 = 1 volt @ 30°.

It follows then that the relative phase shift between these two phasors can be expressed by any of the four following descriptions in terms of leading and lagging angle relationships.

1.) V1 Leads V2 by 20°
2.) V1 Lags V2 by 340°
3.) V2 Leads V1 by 340°
4.) V2 Lags V1 by 20°

My question is: By using the above lead/lag positive angle displacements, does is make any sense or is it possible to instead express these same angles in terms of their corresponding negative angle displacements? If you could express it in terms of negative angles how would it be done? Would it negate a lead or lag?

ie. Modify description 1.) to V1 Leads V2 by 20° OR EQUIVALENTLY -340°

I just want to know if this is legal mathematically/conceptually or even makes sense. Some links or references to conventions or interpretations would be nice. Thanks in advance.
 
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V1 lags V2 by 340°
V1 lags V2 by -20°

V2 leads V1 by 340°
V2 leads V1 by -20°

The sinusiod is cyclic, so the general expression is V1 Leads V2 by (20° + n360°) for any integer n ≥ 0.
 
Last edited:
NascentOxygen said:
V1 lags V2 by 340°
V1 lags V2 by -20°

V2 leads V1 by 340°
V2 leads V1 by -20°

The sinusiod is cyclic, so the general expression is V1 Leads V2 by (20° + n360°) for any integer n ≥ 0.

1.) Can you provide a reference about this for phasors?
2.) If n≥0 why did you express "V2 leads V1 by -20°"
3.) The terms "Lead" and "Lag" already contain information about which way to traverse the angle from the REFERENCE phasor. What does the negative mean in "V2 leads V1 by -20°"?

Typically V1 lags V2 by 20° means rotate C.W. starting from phasor V2 (REFERENCE) by 20°. So in this case we must traverse the plane in the negative angle (lagging or C.W.) direction, however i don't understand saying both leading or lagging AND -20°. It seems that this would be a double negative. Can you clarify what you mean by this?
 
For sources, use google.

For any leading angle you can throw in an extra +n360°,
for any lagging angle you can include an additional -n360°.

Double negatives are fine, though best used judiciously. Leading by -20° is equivalent to lagging by +20°. But of course, for clarity it is best to keep to a positive angle and choose the appropriate lead/lag word to fiit.
 

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