Philosophy: Should we eat meat?

[russ_watters]

They do not get all the priveleges...

More to the point, they do not get all the rights of other people.

 

[Dissident Dan]

I think that nonhuman animals have just as much right to noninterference as any human. What this specifically turns out to differes by species, humans have a wider array of possible actions than most species, so we need a larger list of specific rights (free speech, for example).

Regardless of such rights as freedom of speech, freedom to work, etc., mentally-handicapped humans and nonhuman animals still should be afforded basic protection from harm and not be confined (except where it is necessary for their safety), just as should be for human animals.

 

[russ_watters]

I think that nonhuman animals have just as much right to noninterference as any human.

Non-interference is a good word for it, and it is the category of rights that an infant (fetus?), elderly, retarded person, or incapacitated person loses. The most extreme of course, is that a person in a coma does not have the right to decide if they live or die.

And of course, criminals, depending on the crime, do not have the right to "not be confined" and in some cases do not even have the right to life.

And:

human animals

Is that a Freudian slip? Wow. I think I said it once tongue-in-cheek (animals are people too...), but...wow.

 

[robert Ihnot]

Vegetarianism has its problems

Should we eat meat?

Nowadays, you can see lots of people trying
to save certain animals from being mistreated, like
protecting the sharks or whales from being
hunted.
But I can't see the diference between
eating a steak and killing a shark.
Anyway, they are all life forms.

In China, people from other countries are
attempting to save bears from being used as
a source of gall bile
by the chinese farmers.
But why not save
the poor chickens in commercial farms
which are kept in very tiny cages which do
not even have enough space for them to turn a
round!

Maybe we should all stop eating meat!
It's not unhealthy or lacking enough essentials
because all the vegetarians around the world
are still perfectly fine and healthy.

Now the main problem is:
- Should we continue eating meat as the world's
population continues to expand rapidly??
- Or should we stop eating meat and everyone changes to
become a vegetarian?
(since it's considered to be
cruel to kill other life forms)

Benefits of becoming a vegetarian:

• Freedom for all farm animals!
• Eating less unhealthy food
• No need to cut any animal bodies or organs=> more convienient & less mess
• Eating more healthy food!
• No more interference with the animals' life and death.
• Increase in animal population!
• More animals to conduct researches on.
• No more artificially caused extinction of any animals!
• and many more!

Pure vegetarianism has its problems. I have known very few of them who can or will strictly live that way. But, one that did, managed to fall down and break her leg and had to use a crutch for five years. After that, she was carefull about calcium supplements.

I think it very unhealthy to get glowing ideas about how healthy such a diet is, especially if forced on kids. For the very young, I have been told it is extremely unhealthy. There is nothing "natural" about such a diet. Don't imagine there is.

Mahatma Gandhi, remarks that when he was very sick they forced cow's milk on him and said it was from a goat, which would have been less objectional. He recovered because of this, and so this very famous saint that went on long fasts and avoided killing any animal was not convinced that vegetarianism was completely life-supporting.

 

[jimmy p]

humans are omnivores, we can survive on anything

No we arent. We don't eat detritus and rotting leaf litter. There are many things humans don't eat.

 

[Växan]

i have never broken a bone (at 33 years of age)
after long years of heavy lifting and other physical exertions, hard falls, motorbike accidents, etc...

and all this on a 100% vegan diet

soya milk is as high in calcium as cows milk, and has zero cholesterol
(unlike milk, which is cholesterol death)

and too much calcium is dangerous

the calcium premise is a strawman argument

the only nutrient a vegan diet has less of than a meat diet is Omega 3 (an amino acid) vegan diets contain all amino acids, including Omega 3, but not as much
(fish oil is the most abundant source, and fish oil is quite unhealthy)

 

[Dissident Dan]

Non-interference is a good word for it, and it is the category of rights that an infant (fetus?), elderly, retarded person, or incapacitated person loses. The most extreme of course, is that a person in a coma does not have the right to decide if they live or die.

And of course, criminals, depending on the crime, do not have the right to "not be confined" and in some cases do not even have the right to life.

The only time that one's right to noninterference should be compromised is when one's actions are detrimental to someone. This is most often not the case. Unethical interference includes most instances of the caging of animals that don't pose threats and beating.

The right to not be beaten is a right of noninterference, and the elderly and the retarded both retain those rights.

There are times when we need to interfere with humans, too, including those with the utmost intelligence. Instances in which nonhuman animals need to be constrained or otherwise interfered with are not arguments against animal rights, for they would apply against human rights, too. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to explicitly say it, but there are cases of necessary interference and cases of unnecessary interference. The food industry unnecessarily interferes with the happiness of animals a staggering amount.

I am against the unneccesary, unpleasant restriction of any creatures and any preventable conditions that make unpleasant restriction necessary.

And: Is that a Freudian slip? Wow. I think I said it once tongue-in-cheek (animals are people too...), but...wow.

It is not. It was completely intentional. Humans are animals. I am an animal. You are an animal.

 

[Dissident Dan]

Pure vegetarianism has its problems. I have known very few of them who can or will strictly live that way. But, one that did, managed to fall down and break her leg and had to use a crutch for five years. After that, she was carefull about calcium supplements.

I think it very unhealthy to get glowing ideas about how healthy such a diet is, especially if forced on kids. For the very young, I have been told it is extremely unhealthy. There is nothing "natural" about such a diet. Don't imagine there is.

Mahatma Gandhi...

The idea that the vegan diet results in weak people is falsity of our prejudiced societies. I have been vegan for over two years (and I know many who have been for decades, including bodybuilders), and I still have not broken any bones, and I bench press at least 80 lbs over my bodyweight. I frequently do strenuous exercise that requires strength and agility.

I feel great. I do not feel tired or weak or anything of that sort.

 

[Loren Booda]

More delicious vegetarian options at the supermarket, more nutritional education including, e. g., preparation of whole foods, instruction in growing my own food, and changing the ascetic or righteous reputation of vegetarianism would influence me to eat less meat.

Just think if vegetarianism itself got the press that the "low carb" diet has!

 

[Dissident Dan]

Why are you concerned with the image of vegetarians? Is it because you don't want to be stigmatized, or because you don't like those who currently are stigmatized?

There are more vegetarian specialty items today than any time that I can remember. In all grocery stores, you have veggie burgers of some sort. Many stores carry many types. Pubix and Target carry an excellent line of products called Amy's. The produce, refrigerated, and frozen sections contain a lot of these items.

If you happen to visit a "natural foods" store such as Trader Joe's or Whole Foods, you might be surprised at the options available.

And there are always traditional foods-spaghetti, rice&beans, cereal, fruit, veggies, nuts, etc. Ethnic restaurants often offer more vegetarian options than most restaurants.

There is good list of links for nutritional information available at:
http://www.barcdontbite.org/health/vegnutrition.htm

 

[Loren Booda]

The image of vegetarians bothers me less than lack of access. I work at a Nature Center, where many have followed a non-meat diet, and are educated in working closely with animals. People like Gary Null (on the radio), though, with their whining and righteousness, turn me off.

Arlington actually has more options, such as restaurants, than most localities. We had a natural food co-op here (now out of business) that expected me to travel a ten mile (automobile?) trip for inflated prices. Tonight I have Basmati rice pilaf, from Safeway. I gave up on organic milk because it cost nearly three times the store brand, although it did taste better.

What can one get to eat at Pubix [sic] anyway?

 

[Dissident Dan]

I'm still not sure whether you are saying that you dislike some vegetarians, and your dislike for them turns you away from vegetarianism, or it's that you don't want to have the image yourself.

At Publix, you can get:

-Silk (and other brands of) soymilk
-Many types of veggie burgers
-Other veggie meat replacers
-Many of Amy's line of vegetarian products (http://www.amys.com/)
-Different types of tofu (although I rarely eat tofu, myself)
-Veggie cheese (I am not a big fan)
-Smart Balance Light spread (no animal ingredients)
-Normal, non-specialty vegetarian foods

There are many things in the produce section, the frozen section, the refrigerated section, and their "Greenwise" isle.

 

[Loren Booda]

I like to cook simple. Like a 6 oz. slice of extra firm tofu sauteed in olive oil, served with soy sauce. Or 2 Morningstar Farms Garden Veggie Patties. 2nd(?) Continent soy milk. At least, almost always, 2 servings of dark green or dark yellow vegetables at dinner. Cutting back a bit on generous servings of 100% fruit juice due to sugar. Cheap protein includes animals.

 

[mee]

Einstein

Einstein was a vegetarian and said that we would halt our progress by not progressing to a vegetarian diet. Smart fellow.

 

[Gokul43201]

Pure vegetarianism has its problems. I have known very few of them who can or will strictly live that way. But, one that did, managed to fall down and break her leg and had to use a crutch for five years. After that, she was carefull about calcium supplements.
...

Mahatma Gandhi, remarks that when he was very sick they forced cow's milk on him and said it was from a goat, which would have been less objectional. He recovered because of this, and so this very famous saint that went on long fasts and avoided killing any animal was not convinced that vegetarianism was completely life-supporting.

There are about as many vegetarians in India as there are people in the United States. Also, I don't see the connection between goat's milk and vegetarianism.

 

[vacuum]

Yes we should

I believe meat can't be excluded as a food source, simply because there isn't anything that can be a substitution for it for a larger part of the Humanity.

Anyway, even if there wouldn't be global famine, we would probably witness accelerated destruction of forests/ green surfaces in order to turn it into farmland. This would in turn manifest itself negatively on all other life forms.
I really don't understand people who care so much about animals, while neglecting trees, grass, carrots, cabbage, etc. In my opinion we are all equal(meaning that we live). To put it another way: if you feel sorry for the meet you're eating, then what about salad?

 

[digiflux]

Being kind

With 6 billion people on this planet, vegetable protein is far more environmentally friendly. It takes several acres to raise one cow. That land could grow soy beans and yield much more protein.

I have decided to cause as little pain and suffering as is reasonable possible while I am on this most imperfect planet and therefore eschew meat. Humans have to little respect for their fellow earthlings. We are they and they are us.

It is not unreasonable to assume that a much more advanced race could come to Earth and use our justifications of animal abuse to abuse us.

 

[digiflux]

Bogus Argument

"I really don't understand people who care so much about animals, while neglecting trees, grass, carrots, cabbage, etc. In my opinion we are all equal(meaning that we live). To put it another way: if you feel sorry for the meet you're eating, then what about salad?"

Vacuum: Your argument is bogus. Science nerds use it to justify animal abuse and mistreatment. Tell me this and please be honest; Could you hold a tourch to a living dogs eye as easily as you could to the eye of a potatoe?

 

[digiflux]

Bogus Argument

Darn I pulled a Dan Quale: Make that "potato"

 

[Loren Booda]

Like I say, better to eschew meat than chew meat!

Why do you think aliens don't show up on our planet? Maybe they're bovine.

 

[avemt1]

I think we should use this oportunity to state the duality of the situation. Humans were made to be omnivores, but we are also ment to empathise and rationalize. We are doing this now. We can argue about it and make logical standpoints, or we can do the right thing.
IF ANYBODY IS WORRIED ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN EATING A STEAK AND EAT ING A SHARK FIN THERE IS ONLY PHYSICAL DIFFERENCE FROM A SCIENTIFIC STANDPOINT. WE CAN SAY THAT ALL ANIMALS (INCLUDING HUMANS) NOW BELONG EQUALLY IN THE MEAGER AND PATHETIC EXISTENCE WE LIVE IN. THEREFORE, WE SHOULD TREAT ALL SPECIES AS IF THEY ARE KIN, FRIENDS, ETC.

I am not a vegitarian, but a philosipher with pasion.

 

[vacuum]

blah, blah

All right digiflux, I'll accept the first argument (economy of eating vegs). However, I consider myself a part of the food chain (or whatever it is in English). In the end bacteria will feast on my dead body, so I don't care. I consider dead cow (steak) to be food. I do not have a problem with a shark considering me to be food ( as long as I can avoid it catching me:). This is justifiable to me even if there isn' t smthg more to life than physical self.

I just want to be attuned to Nature's way, meaning not to take more from her than it is possible for her to bear. And ceasing to cause unnecessary pain (the reason I stopped fishing). So, to conclude, if being vegetarian would improve situation in the whole system (of life, Earth, space, choose...) I would become one.

 

[vacuum]

an afterthought

The economics argument is a bit suspicious because there are countries that completely depend on the meat industry. Shutting the meat produce off would bring famine for them. So, turning larger amount of people to vegans will have to wait a long while.

 

[Dissident Dan]

The economics argument is a bit suspicious because there are countries that completely depend on the meat industry. Shutting the meat produce off would bring famine for them. So, turning larger amount of people to vegans will have to wait a long while.

Maybe in nomadic countries, but that has no relevance to us. Animal agriculture is devastating the countryside and using resources at a highly unacceptable rate. Read up on the fecal lagoons from pig factories: http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1525/is_1_84/ai_53501840

 

[Averagesupernova]

the only animal that taunts, tortures and mutilates other animals for the sake of sadistic pleasure

You are wrong. I have seen first hand where a group of pigs literally tore to pieces another pig. I don't know why they do it but they will. Once the pig has been singled out the group will pick on them until they die. Also, a group will not accept a significantly smaller group turned in with them. If 2 groups of equal number and size are turned together they will learn to get along. If it is lopsided, the smaller and weaker side loses. Is it sadistic pleasure? I don't know and I'm betting you don't either. Some of you claim to know an awful lot about animals in general but are making some obvious (to me at least) false statements and Växan I am not singling you out, many others are doing it also.

i believe that animal inteligence excedes human intelligence
humans are just too stupid to interpret the language

That's interesting. If they were so smart I guess they'd find a way to keep us humans from confining them and murdering them. Maybe they're ok with it?

humans are the only animal that cannot thrive or even survive without artificial means

Artificial means? So we were just dropped here on this planet out of some galactic laboratory? We didn't survive in nature and evolve into what we are today?

a naked human is no match in battle against 90% of the world's species
humans are weak and vulnerable, and make up for this insecurity with an inflated ego and big guns

You are right about this one. But regardless of the means by which we survive don't we have just as much right to be here as any other animal? Some of the things you stated in the last quote are EXACTLY why humans feel superior to other animals. You have to prove why that is wrong before it holds any water with me.

 

[hitssquad]

Vegan sources of docosahexaenoic acid

the only nutrient a vegan diet has less of than a meat diet is Omega 3 (an amino acid)

Omega 3 is a class of fatty acids. It is not an amino acid.

• Main Entry: do·co·sa·hex·a·e·no·ic acid
  Pronunciation: ,dOkOsð,heksð,E¦nOik-[/b]
  Function: noun
  Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary docosa- (as in docosanoic acid) + hexa- + -ene + -oic
  
  : an omega-3 fatty acid found especially in cold-water fish — abbreviation DHA

(fish oil is the most abundant source, and fish oil is quite unhealthy)

Fish oil generally contains https://www2.acadia.net/cgi-bin/BAC/web_store.cgi?product=Vitamins .

 

[Dissident Dan]

Fish oil generally contains https://www2.acadia.net/cgi-bin/BAC/web_store.cgi?product=Vitamins .

Fish oil also contains high levels of heavy metals such as mercury and is more subject to rotting than plant oils. I can pretty much guarantee you that any plant oil has more antioxidants than any animal fat.

The richest source of Omega-3 fats is actually flax, according to Michael Greger, MD. However, flax Omega-3s are not in DHA form, so they can have to compete with Omega-6s to use an enzyme that is used to turn them into DHA. DHA can be obtained from capsules made from the oils from microorganisms.

BTW, I do not agree with the outlandish things that Vaxan has said. Please do not discount us all because of what Vaxan stated.

 

[hitssquad]

DHA sources, astaxanthin, ORAC values and BogoMips

Fish oil also contains high levels of heavy metals such as mercury

Yet, low intake of fish is a risk factor for heart disease. Supplementation with lipoic acid protects against mercury toxicity, by the way.

and is more subject to rotting than plant oils.

What do you mean by "subject to rotting"? DHA is more subject to oxidation than alpha linolenic acid, but DHA is a more desirable fatty acid, also, from a health standpoint. Do you mean fish oils are more subject to "rotting" due to their having fatty acids with more points of unsaturation? Algae-derived DHA should be just as subject to "rotting" as fish-derived DHA, if you are talking about proneness to oxidation.

Since DHA is delicate, I keep mine in my freezer and purchase it from a mail-order company that promises it is kept http://www.iherb.com/benefits1.html in its warehouse.

I can pretty much guarantee you that any plant oil has more antioxidants than any animal fat.

Do you mean a higher ORAC value? Since flax does not have astaxanthin, and astaxanthin is one of the most powerful plant-derived lipophilic antioxidants known, it is doubtful that flax oil has a higher ORAC value than fish oil. (Not that ORAC value is wholly indicative of health effect on humans -- ORAC value is roughly to human nutrition what BogoMips and gigaflops are to computing performance)

The richest source of Omega-3 fats is actually flax.

Concentrated fish oil capsules and algae oil capsules are fairly rich sources.

DHA, a long-chain Omega 3 fatty acid found in fish oil, is available http://www.iherb.com/neuromins1.html:

• consider getting ... DHA the same place that the fish get it from--DHA rich algae. There are now vegan algae-derived DHA supplements available at http://www.VeganEssentials.com.

 

[dave19903652]

"More animals to conduct researches on."

From the first post. Wouldn't this be defeating the object? Personally I would prefer to see better conditions for all captive animals first. Also, research is actually more cruel than the food industry. That is vivisection not anything else.

 

[theriddler876]

if you stop thinking about vitamins and protein and all that shtuff and get back to basics and nature, we are built for eating meat, it is natural, such as a lion eats meat, hence the term herbivore we eat both, we have the teeth for both, you know the sharp pointy ones for tearing I mean when have you seen a lion debate weather it should kill an animal for food or not, hmnn anyways we should definitely eat meat, and vegetables, not doing so would be messing with gods creation and such, and for those who don't believe in god, the Earth has been around for 4.6 billion years, who are you to mess with millions of years of evolution, plus the animals that are grown in farms have that purpose in life, and chickens eggs are not fertilized, most of them anyways, so there is no chicken, hmnnn


plants have feelings too