Philosophy: Should we eat meat?

[ShawnD]

Originally posted by ranjana
Have you conducted a survey or have any statistical information regarding your claims that "most vegans do not have a clue what they are talking about"?

Of course I do - PLASTIC

You yourself claim to be a vegan yet you are using a plastic keybard, a plastic mouse and have a plastic computer monitor. That means one of two things.
a). you have no idea what contains animal byproducts
b). you simply don't care


Now you say you know plastic contains animal byproducts, why are you still using plastic? You either use byproducts or you don't, there is no happy medium. You are either a vegan or you are not.

 

[ranjana]

Originally posted by ShawnD
Of course I do - PLASTIC

You yourself claim to be a vegan yet you are using a plastic keybard, a plastic mouse and have a plastic computer monitor. That means one of two things.
a). you have no idea what contains animal byproducts
b). you simply don't care

Since vegans care, that leaves only one option.

Your posts have no rational basis. Your list of possible conclusions are not exhaustive. To the list might be added, for example, c). you haven't found an alternative, d) you haven't been able to access an alternative or even e) you are aware of many items containing animal byproducts but have not yet discovered all items containing byproducts. Can you suggest a keyboard that doesn't contain plastic? Could you please give me a reference for the animal byproducts in keyboards? I would gratefully be enlightened.

At any rate, your conclusions are not valid as you didn't take into account the above possibilities.

Ranjana

 

[ShawnD]

Originally posted by ranjana
Can you suggest a keyboard that doesn't contain plastic?

Well that's flawed logic. If you can use a keyboard saying there is no keyboard not made of plastic, I could just as easily say it's ok to eat jello because there is no jello not made of gelatin.

Now let me see if I'm understanding you correctly. It's ok to use plastic because there is no byproduct-free alternative but it is wrong to eat jello even though there is no byproduct-free alternative?
How does that make sense?

Being a vegan is not about making up excuses for why it's ok to use animal byproducts in some cases but not others. You either use byproducts or you do not.

 

[Be Happy!]

do the best you can

Shawn, I have been vegan for over 12 years, and I have never heard of such a claim of animal by-products in plastics...

Even so, it doesn't negate the good that a vegan diet brings to one's health, alleviation of animal suffering, and the positive global ramifications of such a lifestyle...

We do the best that we can, in the society that we live in.

By your logic, why do anything good if you can't do everything.

 

[ranjana]

Originally posted by ShawnD
Well that's flawed logic. If you can use a keyboard saying there is no keyboard not made of plastic, I could just as easily say it's ok to eat jello because there is no jello not made of gelatin.

Being a vegan is not about making up excuses for why it's ok to use animal byproducts in some cases but not others. You either use byproducts or you do not.

If the logic you are suggesting is employed then, taken to its conclusion vegans should not breathe because it too involves the killing of living organisms (as does the use of animal byproducts). Without breathing vegans will surely die, again involving the willful killing of living beings. You end up in logical bind, a paradox, which of course is perfectly possible in a mere intellectual exercise. Let us inject a healthy dose of common sense, reason and real life - it makes no sense to commit suicide and certainly is not reasonable to expect it! In order to function and live in this world and society as it is, it is not possible to eliminate use of all animal byproducts. The rubber of tires for example contains animals byproducts however, in the structure of present day North American society it is not possible to transport oneself everywhere by foot only. In today’s world computers are all prevailing and pretty much essential for most professional occupations and communications – in other words it is important to many in earning their living or for many others to function in our society. It doesn’t make sense and is not reasonable to expect computers not be used. Jello, on the other hand, is not in anyway important in order for us to live and function in society. It is a food which we clearly do not need to survive in today’s world. What we are talking about here is making reasonable choices and eliminating as many animal based products as possible.

Let’s put your concern in perspective. 80 to 90 percent of profits derived from the murder of animals is made from the meat industry. You are “worried” about the significantly smaller part.

Finally, I have failed to find any references that directly link animal byproducts to all plastics. Plastics as you know are made up principally of a binder together with plasticizers, fillers, pigments, and other additives. Again, I ask you, can you please give me a reference that states which components of plastics contain only animal derived fatty acids? If you cannot, then I suggest that you put your concerns to rest as this is then much ado about nothing.

Ranjana

 

[Dissident Dan]

Originally posted by ShawnD
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime_file/story/65863p-61352c.html


A 16 month old baby cannot lift its own head... healthy?

http://www.pcrm.org/news/health030317.html

“Studies show that a meat-free vegan diet rich in fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and legumes offers clear advantages to growing bodies. In fact, some research has even shown that vegan diets may offer advantages for developing minds as well,” says Dr. Lanou. “The Swintons weren’t even following a real vegan diet because they reportedly gave their child cod-liver oil, which is derived from fish.”

Leading baby expert Dr. Benjamin Spock embraced the use of vegan diets in the 7th edition of Baby and Child Care, the leading guide for parents. Vegan babies, like all infants, should be raised on mother’s milk or formula, eventually followed by fortified infant cereal and mashed fruits and vegetables. At approximately eight months, parents can begin introducing additional foods. To ensure adequate vitamin B12 after weaning, parents should also introduce any common children’s multivitamin.
...

Growing kids need lots of calcium for bones and protein for tissues. Milk is a great source of calcium but vegans cannot drink milk. Meat is the best source of protein you will find but once again, vegans cannot eat meat. Vitamin B12 is very important (just like any other vitamin), but unlike other vitamins, it cannot be found in plants (with the exception of other organisms living in the plants). A vitamin B12 deficiency is a very serious problem leading to irreversible nerve damage.

[/quote]

Milk has lots of calcium, but the animal protein in it counters the calcium in it. You can get plenty of protein from plants. The typical US diet is too hight in protein. B12 can be obtained from fortified foods or supplements (from sea algae-like organisms) or the mother's breast milk

 

[NUKEELT]

Firstly I'd like to point out that to make a general statement that all plastics contain animal by product is ignorant at best. Lactic acid which is occasionally used in soft plastics can be found and extracted from animal tissues but the laboratory grade Lactic Acid used in the creation of such soft plactics such as polyurithane is created through a bacterial fermentation process of cellulose (for a multitude of reasons, cost, clenliness control, quality control and biohazard safety issues) so any lactic acid containing plastic is most likely vegan. As far as glycerin is concerned for many of the same reasons (cost efficiency, quality control, etc) Vegetable Glycerine is most often used in plactic formation as well. The only even marginally valid non vegan plastics claim you have is in geletin. The number of household plastics that use geletin instead of agar are going to be fairly slim. I can guarantee that the Polypropenol that was most likely used to make my keyboard parts contains zero animal byproducts.

Secondly I'd like to point out the biggest flaw of all in your thinking. If I live a vegan lifestyle to the best of my ability then I've accomplished every imaginable goal. I've upheld my morals, I've greatly increased my health, I've saved countless animals from suffering and needlessly dying. If by some oversight I purchase a plastic product that has some trace amount of an animal by-product in it so what. It's not like I compromised my morals, it's not like it takes back all the wonderful things that me following a vegan lifestyle has done. The greater good is still obtained. I appricate your opinion but you really need to stop skirting the issue with ad hominem attacks against vegans and really stick to the issue at hand.

Thanks for your time,
Gabriel

 

[Dissident Dan]

What's all this talk about plastic? I thought that we were talking about meat...

 

[physicsisphirst]

Originally posted by NUKEELT
I can guarantee that the Polypropenol that was most likely used to make my keyboard parts contains zero animal byproducts.

wow! what a great post gabriel!
i wish i'd seen it earlier - I've been running all over the net and even into my van nostrand scientific encyclopedia (ya the big fat one!) to see if i could find anything on animal products in keyboard plastics. i couldn't so your explanation on this is much appreciated!

so were your subsequent points about what a vegan lifestyle can accomplish were inspiring!

 

[ShawnD]

Originally posted by Be Happy!
By your logic, why do anything good if you can't do everything.

Point duely noted. It's great that you're trying to change something.

Let’s put your concern in perspective. 80 to 90 percent of profits derived from the murder of animals is made from the meat industry. You are “worried” about the significantly smaller part.

Although that is true, those animals would still be killed even if the meat was not used. It's not about byproducts making big money, it's about SAVING big money. Gelatin taken from cows that are being killed for meat is cheap. Gelatin (or something like it) created in a lab would be very expensive. Jello only costs like 30 cents per box right now when it's made from animal parts. If the gelatin had to be created from scratch, that same box of Jello would cost at least $1.

Finally, I have failed to find any references that directly link animal byproducts to all plastics

http://www.akzonobel-oleochemicals.com/fatty_acids.htm
"Fatty acids are mainly used as a raw material in the chemical industry. After conversion into products like fatty alcohols, amines, or esters, they are used in various market segments. The main application areas are resins, soap and surfactants, paper chemicals, plastic additives, lubricants and consumer products, like candles."

 

[physicsisphirst]

Originally posted by ShawnD
Point duely noted. It's great that you're trying to change something.

ya it is isn't it!

and it is also decent of you to acknowledge this, shawn :)

 

[ranjana]

Originally posted by ShawnD

http://www.akzonobel-oleochemicals.com/fatty_acids.htm
"Fatty acids are mainly used as a raw material in the chemical industry. After conversion into products like fatty alcohols, amines, or esters, they are used in various market segments. The main application areas are resins, soap and surfactants, paper chemicals, plastic additives, lubricants and consumer products, like candles."

Thank you very much for your reference, it is much appreciated. However, it does not state that the fatty acids are animal based, and many of those listed are also found in plants.

Ranjana

 

[Dissident Dan]

If you don't really know how food production works, please check out the following videos:

http://www.meetyourmeat.com/

http://www.dissidentlogic.com/temp/BARC/video/Pig_Farm_Investigation.mpg (it's about 90 megs, non-streaming).

I think that these videos lend strength to the vegetarian argument.

 

[XcuddleXcoreX]

dairy

Originally posted by elwestrand
I'm lacto-ovo vegetarian. That means I eat dairy and eggs.
Dairy is the most "ethical" food in existence-- it EXISTS to provide sutinence. Am, Vegans don't eat honey either. But actually, most foods that seem vegan have some sort of animal product in them. Small children cannot absorb everything from their food than adults can.. . So they need extra nutrition. If you will not feed your infant your own milk (the milk that comes from the mother), it is very insane and you should not be considered a human being. (the definition of mammal is that the mothers feed milk to the babies-- so if you do not, then you are not worthy of the title mammal and hence human being.) This is my logic. My mother was vegetarian the whole time she was pregnant with me and I was breast fed for two years. Breast feeding is very important for brain development. Am, B12 vitamin is in soul. It is lacking from processed foods due to poor topsoil and stuff, so I heard. Just grow a garden. Don't even wash the carrots, just eat them with the dirt and everything. You will have plenty of B12. You should anyways. I have strong bones. Never broke one of them. Of course to be a healthy vegitarian, it is more than avoiding certain foods. And remember I am vegetarian not because of any religious/moral reasons or sentimentality. I do not believe it is wrong to kill to sustain the body-- but I do believe it is wrong to kill and not eat what you have killed-- sport.

Dairy-producing cows suffer worse and for longer durations of time than any animals on this planet, with perhaps the exception of egg-laying hens. I cannot fathom how you consider dairy to be the most ethical of all foods.

http://www.animalsvoice.com/PAGES/archive/dairy.html

These animals are deprived of everything natural to them. Their natural environment is replaced with crowded and filthy stalls. Their natural diet is replaced with antibiotics, rendered animal byproducts (including blood, feces, rectum, eyes and other treats), and inefficiently used plantfoods (recall that 90% of America's domestically grown grains are fed to farmed animals). Their natural social orders are disrupted: calves produced by dairy cows are often torn from their mothers days after birth and slaughtered for veal. And ultimately they are denied their natural lifespan: dairy cows are typically slaughtered at 5 years of age (note that over 85% of all ground beef in the United States is made primarily of "spent" dairy cows).

Most dairy cows develop mastitis, a painful udder ailment caused by milking machines. They routinely suffer from untreated cuts and bruises on their udders. The majority of dairy cows in the United States are artificially inseminated- an invasive and unnatural procedure that causes pain and stress to the cows. Almost all dairy cows are kept in a perpetual state of pregnancy, causing unimaginable strains on their bodies.

Buying dairy products is supporting animal cruelty.

 

[Be Happy!]

interesting site

www.goveg.com is a wonderful site jammed packed with great reasons to go veg and it even tells you how...

 

[elwestrand]

Originally posted by XcuddleXcoreX

Most dairy cows develop mastitis, a painful udder ailment caused by milking machines. They routinely suffer from untreated cuts and bruises on their udders. The majority of dairy cows in the United States are artificially inseminated- an invasive and unnatural procedure that causes pain and stress to the cows. Almost all dairy cows are kept in a perpetual state of pregnancy, causing unimaginable strains on their bodies.

You are arguing against how dairy producing animals are treated in the US... but you have no argument why milk ITSELF is inherantly evil and cruel. I don't even Live in the US.

 

[pocebokli]

I'm sorry for interrupting, but is collecting points for each side philosophy??

this post is pretty much collecting data and bickering about wether we should eat plastic keyboard (hey, microsoft has this "natural keyboard", probably for vegetarians? doh...)

you really can't see the broader picture?

 

[Dissident Dan]

Originally posted by elwestrand
You are arguing against how dairy producing animals are treated in the US... but you have no argument why milk ITSELF is inherantly evil and cruel. I don't even Live in the US.

Do you know how the milk you get is produced? Do you really think that dairy cows are allowed to live full lives? In order to produce milk, they are impregnated frequently. I'm sure that this is common in all industrialized areas. The male calves are probably used for veal or adult meat. Dairy supports the meat industry. If you want to raise your own cow, that's one thing, but if you buy it from the store, it is a product which has a production method that causes killing, and in many "modernized" areas, torture.

 

[physicsisphirst]

Originally posted by elwestrand
You are arguing against how dairy producing animals are treated in the US... but you have no argument why milk ITSELF is inherantly evil and cruel. I don't even Live in the US.

The milk itself isn't evil or cruel. It has to do with how it is acquired and from whom.

The cow doesn't make the milk for homo sapiens - she makes it for bos taurus. The dairy mechanism, large or small, forces the cow to produce a child, takes her child away from her, and then, takes the nourishment that she produced for that child away from her too.

From your posts on this thread, it is obvious that ethics and compassion are important to you. Otherwise you wouldn't be challenging the others for an argument to show that milk is 'evil and cruel'.

Yet, i do not think that what i have written here, or dan in the last post, or XcuddleXcoreX earlier can possibly be construed as being kind or beneficial to the cow or her children.

Therefore, the challenge goes back to you. either prove that this is not what is done to produce milk, or demonstrate that these practises are really not cruelty in action. Since the former is pretty hard to dispute, the focus will probably be on the latter and the attempt thereof, may provide an deeper insight into our species' sense of understanding and empathy.

Tragically, the saying needs to be modified:

"to err is human, to forgive is bovine"

and cows certainly have much to forgive

 

[Jonh Doe]

More animals to conduct researches on.

By physicskid

HAHAHAHA!

No, seriously, not a so good argument. (if you consider that some research is a lot more cruel than just killing the animal. (figure that I have heard about research of how to graft genital human organs on mice!)

i think this is a bad idea, it could disrupt the food chain if everyone on Earth stopped eating meat.

By decibel

This is, and sorry for insulting him, espescially stupid of him, because the actual consumption of meat on Earth has already disrupted the food chain by a lot, and isn't even part of the natural predator/prey food chain anymore. If we would all stop eating meat, it would more likely restore the food chain than disrupt it.

Oh, and by the way, I am against eating meat, of any kind. (yes, fish is still meat...)

 

[pace]

Just to put a little more light into this thread, I've been a vegetarian(eating milk and eggs) for 2 months now, after discussing in this thread.
I've tried a couple of times before, but now I found it suprisingly easy after discuissing against eating meat in this thread.

 

[XcuddleXcoreX]

admiration

I commend you for making a compassionate decision. As you learn more thoroughly about the issues your ethics will evolve and you will become more secure in them. Remember to constantly ask yourself, "is the decision I'm about to make a compassionate one?". You're on the right path.

 

[revesz]

what is it that the average vegitarian sees wrong eating meat? is it the killing or suffering caused to the living animal? Or, is it the consumption of the flesh of an animal that they don't like?(OR BOTH)

the killing is justified, it is for neutrients, for food, life. It is a natural way to get energy. If you think it cruel or evil, you must think about the fact that you are in your personal universe, it is reality as it exists to you, you only experience your own conciousness, so why would the pain inflicted be morally wrong if it is not as a result causing you personally any suffering? The feelings of the animal are not a part of your experience, the feelings don't exist to you, like a bad dream you had and then forgot, it causes no pain.

Death itself is not so bad(except the part where you actually experience death). but being dead is nothing bad, its nothing good either, its nothing at all really, so why is that not wanted for an animal? Do you fear not waiking up one day? why? you won't feel any regret or pain from not living anymore, so an animal is not going to care that its life is over.

If its the eating the meat that makes you not want it, the actual consuption of somethings body, that you find disturbing or whatever, then you should also stop eating plants too, infact just starve to death while your at it. the fate of your body doesn't matter just because you were once alive, a dead animal is just as much going to care about being eaten as a apple, or head of cabbage. so really eating meat is perfectly fine, in fact if you don't eat meat, then that's your problem. i don't see anything wrong with not eating meat, just that eating it is more convenient, and it tastes great.

 

[Dissident Dan]

revesz, would you find nothing wrong in raising humans in intense confinement so that they could be slaughtered for your consumption?

 

[revesz]

One thing i overlooked, i was not considering the living conditions of the animals, i was more thinking about the fate of the animal. It is wrong to have animals living in poor conditions, not because they are being eaten, but because while they are alive, they are unhappy.
I see how it is evil, and i eat meat, i see that the only thing to do personally that will in any way help, would be to stop eating meat, but I am also a gready human, and i want my meat, and I am not going to stop eating meat. if someone were to say, we should not eat meat, because eating meat is bad i would have to argue. but livestock should be raised in good conditions, in open fields.

I can't remember seeing anything wrong with the conditions of livestock. is it really confinement? cows live in open fields, and they seem happy, chickens don't need lots of room. dogs live in confinement, is that also wrong?

I think we should eat meat, but we should also, give the animals good soroundings, not overcrowded or dirty. And when we slaughter them, it should be by some nonpainfull or at least very quick method.

 

[Dissident Dan]

When I first became vegetarian, I did not find it wrong to raise animals for slaughter in general, but I found that our system of production is so horrible that I could not fathom further supporting the system.

There are plenty of resources available on the internet that teach about the cruelties involved in modern intensive confinement food production, often referred to as "factory farming." Some URLs:

http://www.factoryfarming.org
http://www.ciwf.co.uk/Pubs/factsheet_contents.htm
http://www.vegsoc.org/animals/

There are videos, too, like "Meet Your Meat" (www.meetyourmeat.com), "Diet for a New America" (based on a book), and "Peacable Kingdom".

I do not believe that those who raise animals for food will give much concern to animal welfare. This is especially true given the trend towards larger and larger corporate operations.

 

[chrismbg]

Priorities

I really don't care if we eat meat or not. Here's why.

There are a lot of people that eat meat. They don't care about the health of the animal they are eating. This is part of the food chain, whether we like it or not. We are at the top.

I see a lot of people that are against eating meat because it hurts the animals involved. Of course it will, you are killing the animals to eat them. Whether it's systematic or personal hunting, the animal dies, usually a painful death, to be eaten. So is nature.

The problem I have is that so many people are spending so much time on this topic. Whether to save the whales or not...come on! There are people dying every day from more ridiculous things. Shouldn't we focus our priorities on people first, then animals?

Maybe I am thinking too big, but this is the way I see things.

Chris

 

[cookiemonster]

Are cows even smart enough to care how they live?

cookiemonster

 

[pace]

Yes I think so.

chrismbg,
We do focus a lot more more on humans than other animals.

It's sad that when violence and torture is done to humans we are so horrified but when it's done between different animals(including us) it's suddenly supposed to be so natural.

Where is the line?
I might as well argue that my mom, dad and cousins are like me, and that americans are so different. I might as well back this up by saying nations have gone too war as long as man's memory, therefore it's completely natural that we capture all americans and do whatever we please with them.

There is no line to love, morals, and friendship.

 

[Dissident Dan]

Originally posted by chrismbg

The problem I have is that so many people are spending so much time on this topic. Whether to save the whales or not...come on! There are people dying every day from more ridiculous things. Shouldn't we focus our priorities on people first, then animals?

"When non-vegetarians say that 'human problems come first,' I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of animals." -- Peter Singer