Photons, Protons, and Electrons

[David hzf]

Photon is the force carrier for charged particles.
Questions:
1. Are photons generated between proton and electron in an atom?
2. If yes who generate the photon? The proton or the electron?
3. If yes, quantum mechanically, the electron is never at a fixed position, what is the photon doing?
4. If yes, what is the light spectrum of this photon?
5. If no, what hold the proton and electron together - even I understand that they are opposite charge.

Tq

 

[phinds]

What research have you done on this? What have you found out?

 

[anorlunda]

Below it the answer to similar questions. Hang on to your hat though; the correct answer is not an easy one for laymen.

From the thread https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/attractive-forces-from-particle-exchange.762383/

This is a common question:
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/Quantum/virtual_particles.html
... question (2).

 

[David hzf]

What research have you done on this? What have you found out?

I am just thinking could there be a level that is lower than quantum which is the base level of the Universe. :-)

 

[phinds]

I am just thinking could there be a level that is lower than quantum which is the base level of the Universe. :-)

There could be unicorns but since nobody's ever seen one, we don't discuss them on this forum.

 

[David hzf]

Below it the answer to similar questions. Hang on to your hat though; the correct answer is not an easy one for laymen.

From the thread https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/attractive-forces-from-particle-exchange.762383/

Thanks! This is indeed not easy to understand. But as I glanced through (I can't understand even if I read the details :-)), the answers to my questions seems to me are as followed. Please correct if wrong or for clarity. Thank you!

1. Are photons generated between proton and electron in an atom? <A> Yes, but virtual photon.
2. If yes who generate the photon? The proton or the electron? <A> Based on probability.
3. If yes, quantum mechanically, the electron is never at a fixed position, what is the photon doing? <A> Again based on probability and wave function.
4. If yes, what is the light spectrum of this photon? <A> Don't seems to find an answer here.
5. If no, what hold the proton and electron together - even I understand that they are opposite charge. <A> Not applicable.

 

[ZapperZ]

Thanks! This is indeed not easy to understand. But as I glanced through (I can't understand even if I read the details :-)), the answers to my questions seems to me are as followed. Please correct if wrong or for clarity. Thank you!

1. Are photons generated between proton and electron in an atom? <A> Yes, but virtual photon.
2. If yes who generate the photon? The proton or the electron? <A> Based on probability.
3. If yes, quantum mechanically, the electron is never at a fixed position, what is the photon doing? <A> Again based on probability and wave function.
4. If yes, what is the light spectrum of this photon? <A> Don't seems to find an answer here.
5. If no, what hold the proton and electron together - even I understand that they are opposite charge. <A> Not applicable.

As I expected, you got answers, but you are completely misinterpreting what you have been given.

Let's get this out of the way first and foremost. The "photon" that you are dealing with in the context of it being the "charge carrier" is a VIRTUAL PHOTON. I need to put that out as clearly as possible because, later on, you are asking about the "spectrum" of this photon as if this is the usual light photons that we see everyday. It is NOT! That is why asking for the "spectrum" makes no sense, and it is why you're not getting any answer.

This virtual photon a part of the quantum field that generates the electromagnetic interaction. It means that ALL interaction involving charge particles and magnetic particles, involve these type of photons. So asking whether the photon comes from the proton or electron also doesn't make any sense (why are we excluding the magnetic field, the muon, the positron,etc.?).

Just be very careful in interpreting what you read. Just because something shares the same name (photon) doesn't mean that it is the same beast everywhere. The context is extremely important.

Zz.

 

[anorlunda]

4. If yes, what is the light spectrum of this photon? <A> Don't seems to find an answer here.
5. If no, what hold the proton and electron together - even I understand that they are opposite charge. <A> Not applicable.

4: A single photon has only one frequency, so the word spectrum does not apply.
5. Yes, it does apply and the answer is in the linked article. The attractive force simply comes down to the distortions in the shape of the wave function.

Quantum mechanics is what it is. It will never by easy for us to visualize intuitively.

 

[Simon Bridge]

It usually has the least nonsense to just take the "shut up and calculate" approach to QM. That means the answer to most of the question amounts to "dunno - but the maths works really well".

Thems is just the rules for doing the maths. Leave what is "really" going on to the philosophers.
The case of electrodynamic attraction/repulsion is particularly tricky to grasp without some background work.
When asked what research you had done, you did not answer (except to beg the question) ... why not?
What is your education level?

Meantime, the field that covers electromagnetic stuff is called QED... here's my go-to lecture series on it by one of the inventors.
You should have a look at how more simple situations are modeled in this framework before worrying about virtual particles.
http://www.vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8

 

[David hzf]

As I expected, you got answers, but you are completely misinterpreting what you have been given.

Let's get this out of the way first and foremost. The "photon" that you are dealing with in the context of it being the "charge carrier" is a VIRTUAL PHOTON. I need to put that out as clearly as possible because, later on, you are asking about the "spectrum" of this photon as if this is the usual light photons that we see everyday. It is NOT! That is why asking for the "spectrum" makes no sense, and it is why you're not getting any answer.

This virtual photon a part of the quantum field that generates the electromagnetic interaction. It means that ALL interaction involving charge particles and magnetic particles, involve these type of photons. So asking whether the photon comes from the proton or electron also doesn't make any sense (why are we excluding the magnetic field, the muon, the positron,etc.?).

Just be very careful in interpreting what you read. Just because something shares the same name (photon) doesn't mean that it is the same beast everywhere. The context is extremely important.

Zz.

After I replied to my own questions yesterday, I already realized the virtual photon is different from the "real" photon and therefore the question on light spectrum is not applicable.

Thank you.

 

[David hzf]

4: A single photon has only one frequency, so the word spectrum does not apply.
5. Yes, it does apply and the answer is in the linked article. The attractive force simply comes down to the distortions in the shape of the wave function.

Quantum mechanics is what it is. It will never by easy for us to visualize intuitively.

Understand and Thank you.

 

[David hzf]

It usually has the least nonsense to just take the "shut up and calculate" approach to QM. That means the answer to most of the question amounts to "dunno - but the maths works really well".

Thems is just the rules for doing the maths. Leave what is "really" going on to the philosophers.
The case of electrodynamic attraction/repulsion is particularly tricky to grasp without some background work.
When asked what research you had done, you did not answer (except to beg the question) ... why not?
What is your education level?

Meantime, the field that covers electromagnetic stuff is called QED... here's my go-to lecture series on it by one of the inventors.
You should have a look at how more simple situations are modeled in this framework before worrying about virtual particles.
http://www.vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8

It usually has the least nonsense to just take the "shut up and calculate" approach to QM. That means the answer to most of the question amounts to "dunno - but the maths works really well".

Thems is just the rules for doing the maths. Leave what is "really" going on to the philosophers.
The case of electrodynamic attraction/repulsion is particularly tricky to grasp without some background work.
When asked what research you had done, you did not answer (except to beg the question) ... why not?
What is your education level?

Meantime, the field that covers electromagnetic stuff is called QED... here's my go-to lecture series on it by one of the inventors.
You should have a look at how more simple situations are modeled in this framework before worrying about virtual particles.
http://www.vega.org.uk/video/subseries/8

First of all, I like to apologize for not answering directly to the question on what research I am doing. I am not trying to beg the question. I try not to discuss here as I feel it is not appropriate.

Second, I gave a truthful answer yesterday by mentioning that what I am thinking is something below quantum. You might think I am an idiot without knowing quantum and thinking about below quantum and that's ok.. But f anyone is open enough can contatct me at <<contact information redacted>> I will be happy to talk and I do need help from someone who know physics well.

Btw, I did go through some quantum lessons but I am just not good at it. Thanks for the link anyway.

I think the above technical discussion has cleared up the matter for me and it's useful for some idiots (:-) if there is any) who have the same questions in future.

Thank you.