Planar interdigitated electrodes

  • Thread starter Thread starter fadzleyna
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Electrodes
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the design and application of planar interdigitated electrodes for a dielectric sensor intended to measure the quality of cooking oil, specifically focusing on water contamination detection. Participants explore various design considerations, challenges, and potential modifications related to the sensor's effectiveness in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that there is no simple formula for designing planar interdigitated electrodes, as it depends on the scale and response required for the sensor.
  • One participant suggests that measuring the dielectric constant of the cooking oil emulsion through the container wall could be effective, as oil and water have significantly different dielectric constants.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for water to settle at the bottom of the container, which could lead to inaccurate measurements if the sensor only detects the clear oil above.
  • Another participant proposes that using density measurements might be more reliable than dielectric constant measurements due to possible reactions between water and oil that could affect dielectric properties.
  • There is a discussion about the geometry of the electric field between electrodes and how it is influenced by the size and configuration of the sensor, with larger sensors suggested for better sampling of the oil volume.
  • Some participants recommend using a differential electrode configuration for better screening and isolation from external interference, while others emphasize the need for a large sensor with wide electrode separation.
  • One participant expresses a commitment to using interdigitated electrodes despite the challenges and suggestions for alternative designs, indicating a desire for guidance on how to proceed with this choice.
  • Another participant suggests a compromise by considering a “two finger” interdigitated electrode array as a potential solution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effectiveness and design of interdigitated electrodes versus alternative configurations. There is no consensus on the best approach, and multiple competing ideas remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of specific details regarding the container's size, wall thickness, and material, which are critical for sensor design. The discussion also highlights uncertainties regarding the influence of the container wall on measurement accuracy.

fadzleyna
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Capture.JPG


what is the formula to calculate planar interdigitated electrodes for dielectric sensor ?
 
Engineering news on Phys.org
Welcome to PF.
There is no simple formula. It will depend on what scale you are considering and what response you require.
How big will your sensor be? What will it be sensing?
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Guido_Huyberechts/publication/3706735_Nanoscaled_interdigitated_electrode_arrays_for_biochemical_sensors/links/0fcfd509414c26a078000000.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: fadzleyna
thanks Baluncore !

actually i want to design a dielectric sensor based on planar interdigitated electrodes that will be attached to a bottle filled with cooking oil to detect the quality of cooking oil.
until now i still confuse about it.
 
To measure the water contamination of cooking oil you can measure the dielectric constant of the emulsion through the wall of a plastic or glass container. There are several design choices that can make that possible. It might also be possible to measure the dielectric loss angle of the emulsion, but I think the water content will be quite detectable by capacitance alone since the oil and water have very different dielectric constants.

A problem you may have is that wet oil may settle to the bottom of the container and your sensor may be measuring the characteristics of the clear oil that rises above the wet oil. It is also possible that water will react with the oil to make a hydrocarbon hydroxide. That sludge may have a similar dielectric constant to the good oil. It might be better to use density rather than dielectric constant in that case.

Planar interdigitated electrodes are good for sensing material that is very close to the electrodes. The electric field geometry between the electrodes will be of a similar form, independent of the scale.

Since the sensor must “look” through the wall of the container, it should use a large sensor with wide separation between electrodes and a deep field. That will sample a greater volume of the oil. A very small sensor with many fingers will measure the characteristics of the container wall material only, with very little influence from the oil. The less sensor fingers you use, the bigger can be the sensor gaps and the deeper the sensor field can sample into the oil. There may be a small irregular gap between the wall and the sensor. The effect of that gap will be less for a large sensor than for a small sensor. You might consider a grease between the sensor and the bottle to eliminate the airgap.

Another problem is screening the sensor from behind. If a metallic screen is used and if that is placed close to the back of the sensor, then it will increase the fixed capacitance and so reduce the influence of the fluid. I would consider placing a slab of “closed cell foam” behind the sensor. Outside that foam I would attach a sheet metal screen for the sensor assembly. The thickness of a low dielectric constant foam will reduce the fixed capacitance. The screen will keep out external electrical interference. The sensor electronics can also be placed inside that foam cavity.

It might be good to use two differential electrodes inside a grounded case. The advantage of that configuration would be better screening and isolation from the external environment.

So I am suggesting you use a large differential pair of electrodes rather than a planar interdigitated electrode array.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: fadzleyna
Baluncore said:
To measure the water contamination of cooking oil you can measure the dielectric constant of the emulsion through the wall of a plastic or glass container. There are several design choices that can make that possible. It might also be possible to measure the dielectric loss angle of the emulsion, but I think the water content will be quite detectable by capacitance alone since the oil and water have very different dielectric constants.

A problem you may have is that wet oil may settle to the bottom of the container and your sensor may be measuring the characteristics of the clear oil that rises above the wet oil. It is also possible that water will react with the oil to make a hydrocarbon hydroxide. That sludge may have a similar dielectric constant to the good oil. It might be better to use density rather than dielectric constant in that case.

Planar interdigitated electrodes are good for sensing material that is very close to the electrodes. The electric field geometry between the electrodes will be of a similar form, independent of the scale.

Since the sensor must “look” through the wall of the container, it should use a large sensor with wide separation between electrodes and a deep field. That will sample a greater volume of the oil. A very small sensor with many fingers will measure the characteristics of the container wall material only, with very little influence from the oil. The less sensor fingers you use, the bigger can be the sensor gaps and the deeper the sensor field can sample into the oil. There may be a small irregular gap between the wall and the sensor. The effect of that gap will be less for a large sensor than for a small sensor. You might consider a grease between the sensor and the bottle to eliminate the airgap.

Another problem is screening the sensor from behind. If a metallic screen is used and if that is placed close to the back of the sensor, then it will increase the fixed capacitance and so reduce the influence of the fluid. I would consider placing a slab of “closed cell foam” behind the sensor. Outside that foam I would attach a sheet metal screen for the sensor assembly. The thickness of a low dielectric constant foam will reduce the fixed capacitance. The screen will keep out external electrical interference. The sensor electronics can also be placed inside that foam cavity.

It might be good to use two differential electrodes inside a grounded case. The advantage of that configuration would be better screening and isolation from the external environment.

So I am suggesting you use a large differential pair of electrodes rather than a planar interdigitated electrode array.

but i had decide to use interdigitated electrodes in my proposal. what should i do now?
 
fadzleyna said:
but i had decide to use interdigitated electrodes in my proposal. what should i do now?
Revoke your decision, or compromise by building a “two finger” interdigitated electrode array.

It is hard to design because I do not know your container's size, wall thickness or material.
You can etch the electrode pattern and part of the ground screen on a single sided PCB.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
1K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
11K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
3K
Replies
4
Views
3K
Replies
15
Views
2K